For All My Sophist Coordination, My Love For Gundam is All Natural

[AHQ] Gundam SEED DESTINY - Phase 32 - Stella.mkv_snapshot_22.50_[2010.12.16_06.30.21]

It may seem like a long time, but I’ve only been a fan of the Gundam franchise for two years, if it makes sense to affix the date on the publication of this post: Before I Knew it, I Became a Gundam Fanboy. Due to the sheer breadth of shows in the franchise, I have written more about Gundam more than any other subject here in We Remember Love (my Macross posts are inflated by my episodic blogging of Macross Frontier).

Last year I took on the shows didn’t like, and the posts I wrote reflect my intense feelings about them:

10 Reasons Why Mobile Suit ZZ Gundam is Awesome (SARCASM)
The Need for (Gundam) SEED: Masochism (and Sadism)
Make The Impossible Possible: Enjoying Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny

…and then recently I consolidated my feelings for my gateway show in the franchise:

Sayonara Gundam 00, My Wishes are Over Your Airspace

(…and lastly A Hollow Victory: Finishing Off Mobile Suit Victory Gundam)

That’s a lot of hate, which I find rather uncomfortable since these posts got a fair bit of attention compared to my other posts, both in comments, link sharing, and discussion in other forums. While I did enjoy writing these posts, perhaps compensating for how much I disliked watching the subject shows, I do love Gundam.

My appreciation for it, or at least the possibility it represents, is now very clear to me, and I will share all of it with you today. My appreciation for Gundam is part of my love for anime itself.

To begin with,

I love illustrations.

five star stories clotho

What can I say? I really do.

I love illustrations in color, and illustrations that move (hence, animation).

Flying, dancing, anything that moves an illustrated body through space is a delight.

I believe that the most exciting depiction of movement is in fighting.

The drama is all there, the direction, choreography, style, fireworks, speed, etc. All of this find expression in the depiction in combat, and sometimes all at once.

[HorribleSubs] Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt - 06 [720p].mkv_snapshot_15.42_[2011.01.12_15.05.37]

I believe that combat between very large robots is the greatest possibility for all this to happen.

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Size, range, variety of weapons, destructive potential; sure you can have tiny sprites like Vegeta or Freeza destroy planets, but they do great things by spamming energy attacks which is in its own way a illustration therefore animation shortcut. Giant robot battles occur in different size levels which  allows for the viewer to find points of perspective that lets the spectacle immensity, allowing us easier access to feelings like awe.

Super Robot style combat resembles gladiatorial combat or less charitably, pro-wrestling matches.

(B-A)G_Gundam_41_(FA121558).mkv_snapshot_17.25_[2011.01.12_17.08.58][SKL-Magnum] Mazinkaiser SKL - 01 [F0E13E21].mkv_snapshot_10.42_[2011.01.01_19.53.47]

Real Robot style combat is more similar to military fighting.

[gg]_MS_IGLOO_2_-_03_[720p]_[A5A0D36B].mkv_snapshot_10.39_[2011.01.12_16.34.47]Macross_Frontier_Ep25_Your_Sound_[720p,BluRay,x264]_-_THORA.mkv_snapshot_00.56_[2010.06.21_08.47.15]

A wider range of tactics, ordnance, combined-armaments, scale, environments, etc. are available. It can be very, very serious and when it isn’t it can easily encompass some of the things that Super Robot style combat offers.

Related to this, is how I find the human figure to be one of the most aesthetically pleasing things to watch. It is also the most accessible thing to observe (as opposed to blobs, tentacles, or truly odd monsters). The action becomes clear and easy to follow, and therefore to enjoy.

Therefore: Gundam.

Humanoid robots fighting in space, where multiple vectors of attack are possible; Gundam gives me the range of combined arms fighting while retaining the duel as a conceit in mid-battle. The mobile suits still cross swords, throw strikes, and grapple. This kind of close-quarters fighting has been rather comical for me in many cases, but there are moments where these are just the finest of things: (08th MS Team, War in the Pocket, Unicorn).

The Gundam shows I dislike indulge in a more stylized kind of fantasy fighting. Alternative Universe Gundam shows depart from my preferred kind of robot action, and are more similar to shonen battle shows, or perhaps specifically Dynasty Warriors video games, or the Sengoku Basara anime wherein an individual unit lays waste to many grunts using flashy powers.

While I can enjoy these things to some degree, I don’t enjoy them that much.

Where is Macross in all this, given that I am a lifelong Macross fan¹? Macross’ dogfights are still the best in and out of the atmosphere, while FLAG’s ground engagements are the best on the ground. Neither are consistently satisfying however, because in Macross’ case the biggest battles are either really old (Saturn’s Rings in SDFM) or caught up in concerts (DYRL?, Macross Frontier), or are on the small side of conflicts (Macross Zero) which is the case with FLAG. While the quality is superb, the quantity is small, compared to the buffet of say Mobile Suit Gundam Igloo 2 episode 03.

ghostlightning gundam shows completed as of 01172011

In hindsight, given what I like about anime it is only natural that I ended up being a Gundam fan. After tuning my expectations I’ve found myself incredibly taken by the franchise and its fandom. So here I am, having watched more Gundam than there are shows left unwatched; and while there are many purposes to watching anime, it’s become such that Gundam is a big part of what keeps me looking forward to the new. It may not always give me what I want (as The Awakening of the Trailblazer only awakened hate from me instead of making me remember love), but there’s always that possibility that it will, and even do better.

¹Also, there’s this: Macross presents the least ludicrous justification (relatively) to the existence of giant humanoid robots as main battle units.
Haven’t seen any Gundam at all? Don’t know where to start? Find your Gateway Gundam!

About ghostlightning

I entered the anime blogging sphere as a lurker around Spring 2008. We Remember Love is my first anime blog. Click here if this is your first time to visit WRL.
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30 Responses to For All My Sophist Coordination, My Love For Gundam is All Natural

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  2. w00t for fandom. Even though you hate SEED, I can tell you’ve largely made up for it with the sheer amount of fun it’s allowed you to have, especially in SRWJ, this blog, and your hilarious fonts. I almost want to strengthen my hatedom of Bee Train just so I can have that much hate for something (but sadly, my masochism can only make it through an episode or two, while yours goes on for millennia.)

    I’m with you on just about everything you said about fighting being the best thing in anime, but where I fall off a bit is on the robot part—and that’s not even the robots’ fault.

    What it comes down to is that mech fights are hard to animate well, and mech shows only occasionally have the production power to pull them off in a way that’s really satisfying to me.

    When it comes to fight scenes, I’m all about being awed by the strength of the fighters, and I most understand strength by seeing a character perform outstanding stunts that push the limits of capability while looking like they’re really doing it.

    I like super robots with all their hot-blooded yelling and big huge attacks (God Finger being my favorite), but I don’t remember them for the actual combat, and only for the drama of their use. I have a better mental image of Domon getting ready to use God Finger than I do of him actually destroying anything with it.

    For me to truly believe a fight, it has to have flow and choreography. BONES are gods of this when it comes to humans fighting, as they showed in Stranger, Soul Eater, Brotherhood, and more, but they can’t seem to bring that magic to mech fights, as the combat in Eureka Seven and Star Driver isn’t all that memorable.

    It’s not like there aren’t mecha anime that have this flow, but there are only a handful I can think of. Gurren Lagann has remained my favorite mecha anime precisely because it backs up all the dramatic super-robot nonsense with action-packed and wildly inventive fights using Hiroyuki Imaishi’s godlike fight animation sense. Gundam Unicorn managed to do it just as well using real robots.

    But mech battles do have the advantage of more tactics that you don’t see much in foot-combat (seeing as there aren’t exactly a lot of depictions of war in anime that aren’t either sets of still images or shitty CG encounters). War in the Pocket had battles that were tactically sound and visually efficient. Code Geass pulled it off every once in a while. These things are also ones I enjoy.

    So for me, robot battles on their own can’t sell me on a show—they have to be spectacular robot battles. Regular or shitty robot battles aren’t going to keep me entertained while I have to put up with the annoying aspects of a show.

    My brother’s following in your footsteps. He just marathoned both seasons of Code Geass and considered it the official completion of his top five. When I asked him about the elements that many people found ridiculous he said “it’s a mecha anime, I expect that stuff. It doesn’t really effect me.” That boy has the makings of a truly passionate mecha fanboy.

    I actually now feel inspired to figure out how to write about fights, because that’s an important thing that I don’t think I express nearly enough. While I don’t care what they think about me, the fact that people seem to perceive me as just a big moe fanboy makes me realize that I haven’t done enough to express my love for this side of anime.

    I should rewatch Starship Operators.

    • Well, you don’t enjoy the robot fights you do get to see as much as I do — and that’s okay.

      Eureka SeveN doesn’t have that much memorable fights, because they are mostly skirmishes that are very stylized and pretty much follow a simple formula of having the Gekkostate’s LFOs evade the Itano Circi, then either Holland or Renton/Eureka give the KLF’s forces the business. If you’re not a BIG fan of Itano Circi, you’re not going to be a big fan of E7’s battles. Also, the sky surfing conceit is novel and interesting, but ultimately kinda goofy IMO.

      THAT SAID, Holland running out of options after he rescued Norb, cornered in a gully and unable to fly — which led to Renton rescuing him in full berserk mode, was pretty intense and good. What makes it fail as a top-tier robot battle is how the Nirvash was in full use of plot armor and was just inexplicably impossible to hit at close range using full suppressive gunfire.

      Yes, shitty robot battles make me raeg (Macross 7, VOTOMs, and a shitload of Gundam shows you don’t need me to repeat). But I prefer them to no robot battles, or no battles at all.

      Now, let us not get ahead of ourselves and make this set of premises the fullness of my anime appreciation aesthetic. Obviously I care for a lot more than just this (see: remembering love and referencing traditions in shows and stories).

      It is however, the starting point of why I like anime. Story, dialogue, direction, themes… it’s utterly ignorant to assert that anime has the best examples of these things.

      We watch anime because it gives us something that it’s best at doing: for some of us it’s 2D moe, for some 2D titillation; for me it’s 2D violence. In any case, the foundation is illustration! Anime gives us these things best, because when it’s delivering this content, we don’t have to filter for them — it’s given almost entirely in its purest form.

      Ask your bro what he thought about The Battle of Narita.

  3. KrimzonStriker says:

    Thanks a lot ghost, now I gotta go watch Kiki’s Delivery Service again instead of working on my submission. :p

    Nice entry as always, though one point of contention though is perhaps this overemphasis on animation, which while very important in conveying a scene will almost always need a compelling enough story/cast of characters in order to be truly endearing in my book. I don’t know, perhaps Legend of the Galactic Heroes spoiled me too much.

    Speaking of mecha, ever thought about looking into Zoids a bit more closely? The original series at least was something I really enjoyed, even as I get older.

    • The thing about Zoids is that the mechs are animals, and as GL said in this post, a lot of the fun in mecha anime is the humanoid form.

      I do agree that animation *on its own* is not enough to captivate me—I know because I’ve seen a million avant-garde anime shorts, and I don’t care for any of them. The closest something has come to being a favorite just for animation is Daicon IV.

      However, animation certainly makes it easier to watch a show I’d otherwise hate. I mean, let’s take Sengoku Basara—because it has such amazing animation to display it’s crazy fights, it’s entertaining, and the characters only need to do a little bit to keep the show interesting. However, if we took that show and had, say, Studio DEEN produce it with the exact same script, we’d have a heaping pile of shit.

      • KrimzonStriker says:

        No I generally understand where you’re coming from, I just thought I’d mention it in order to bring up a change of pace. Plus it would make an interesting exposition piece in weighing the merits of the two designs for warfare.

        Same, though not nearly as many as you probably. Some were pretty funny though, I have to admit.

        I could also say the exact opposite in that regard myself, an enduring cast of characters and engaging story can often turn even the most seemingly mundane imagery can evoke a similarly epic feeling of scale, Legend of Galactic Heroes being one that I mentioned earlier, which I think is reinforced in the very subtle changes/improvements they made in the subsequent OVAs.

        Overall I feel they both still go hand in hand, as ridiculous as some of the characters in Sengoku were they had their own hilarious charm that added to it. And having great animation isn’t always enough if you have a horrendous story, look at Seed Destiny to make my point. Also, in my honest opinion I don’t think Gundam Unicorn would be able to carry itself as far it has in UC franchise without the added wait of context and re-branding of the story it brings, despite the stellar sequence and animation.

        • I’m a bit confused by your examples. While there wasn’t that much movement to animate, I thought LOGH (what little of it I’ve seen) looked really solid. It’s a show that’s aged exceedingly well thanks to great designs and Madhouse’s attention to detail.

          But Gundam SEED Destiny, and don’t take my word for this, because I haven’t seen it, I’d heard looked like shit. I know there was a lot of cuts for recaps and the like, and it features by far the worst design work Hirai Hisashi has ever done (this is my personal opinion based on all art I’ve seen of the series.) Again, though, I could be wrong, and ultimately, while animation can be judged on an existing scale of technicality, it in no way invalidates personal opinion as to what looks good.

          Unicorn Gundam is a great story, but something that political and large on techno-babble would’ve bored me into the grave if I didn’t have so much pretty stuff to look at, and the animation of mechs and cockpits in the show is a fuckin’ accomplishment.

          Simply put, story and characters can be super well-written, but I watch anime. If I wanted a great story and characters alone, I’d read. If I wanted them with non-animated visuals, I’d watch a movie. If I wanted it anime-style but didn’t care about the actual animation factor, I’d read manga. It’s precisely because I hold every factor in equal regards that anime is the medium I focus on.

          • KrimzonStriker says:

            I guess I’m mostly focusing on the technical aspect then anything else, not critique on the design itself. Difference of eras essentially, but in my comment on Legend of Galactic Heroes and specifically the OVAs they kept to the basic formula of the original series despite the improvements made in the technical aspect of animation compared to when the series first started. That was the smart move in my opinion, because it fit with the overall character of the series and how it was portrayed, with no need for stellar eye-candy in order to translate that.

            Well on that score in regards to the political jargon I could point to other genre’s that have a softer tone and generally lack the overall excitement that comes with a combat oriented series.

            And in that regard it simply becomes a matter of the style you prefer to see it presented through. But at the core of each of these mediums lies a story, and that translates across all the spectrum. Of course I also look for different types of stories as well depending on my preference at the time, but just as with words, acting, art, or animation the character for each work is carried over. Perhaps I am putting too much emphasis on the fundamentals here, but I feel pretty strongly on the need for a strong partnership on both fronts in order for a series to really shine and stand out in my memory.

          • By the way, I just wanna point out that Legend of the Galactic Heroes is all OVA. As in the whole 110-episode shebang and all the other OVAs as well. That’s why it took 10 years from beginning to end to produce as opposed to two and a half.

          • Yes, pretty much this.

      • Sengoku Basara is the kind of show that pisses me off. The first season did enough with its over-the-top manly speeches. But the fights are exactly what soured me on the show. There’s more magic involved in the gyrations of the combatants than there is actual martial arts.

    • While I consider Legend of the Galactic Heroes as a Kaiser among anime, I do think that I like it so much because it is unique. Nothing comes close to attempting to do what it does.

      But as animation, it isn’t that good. The fights are very intelligent, but when when it leaves the rather simplistic naval paradigm of space battles (i.e. infantry, etc.) it rather gets very annoying.

      The big question I ask myself is, “If a big budget live-action production of LotGH existed, doing everything the anime did only live action, would I consider it inferior to anime?”

      No. I think the live action would be superior. Just imagining the work flesh-and-blood actors will be able to put into the expressions of the admirals as they discuss things fills me with the good stuff. Also, Reuenthal would never be allowed to try backflips when assaulted by Schenkopp.

      Zoids, while interesting, is really a novelty that I’m not into right now or for the most part. I obviously favor humanoid robots because I personally find the human form the most appealing.

  4. Jack says:

    As much as I enjoy robots fighting, both in the Super Robot and the ‘Real Robot’ sense, I just cant imagine it as ‘intrinsically’ the best kind of combat.

    I can’t find any convincing reason to favour robot combat other forms of battle. It’s true that there is the possibility for a wide variety of actions, but that means little when the execution is poor. Many shows have the potential to be good, but that doesn’t mean that they are. Execution is the real issue.

    For example, when looking at Super-Robot combat, there is a marked difference in how interesting a combat sequence is across the series “The Big O”. Weight, speed, weapon usage, tension and very detailed animation are frequent factors in making the combat from the 1st season great. Yet, in the second season the mechs move too fast, they are too light in places and the combat is less interesting. Nearly all the factors are the same, but the execution has changed and now the combat is less interesting.

    Most real robot shows are far less consistent then that, episode to episode the quality of the combat varies wildly due to staff, time and budget considerations. More often than not this means the best combat ends up in OAV’s and movies, which are usually better executed.

    I often enjoy these far more than the inconsistent combat in TV. These OVA’s and movies contain some of my favourite combat sequences in anime, but not because they involve robots but because they are well choreographed, well animated, well storyboarded and well edited. Any combat sequence which is as well made will demand my attention.

    It just seems odd to claim that there’s a quality unique to robots fighting which gives it an inherent edge over other combat. Quite often robot shows have poorly animated, inconsistent combat. Infinite Stratos, a terrible harem anime airing this season, has mecha combat. But it’s awful. Is it still better them awful combat in another show, because it has mecha? I don’t think so.

    The combat from Gundam Unicorn is excellent, and memorable. But so is weapon combat from “Sword of the Stranger”. The street-fighting from “Air Master”. The ludicrous, but amazing, gun fights from “Mezzo Forte/Kite”. The intelligent shounen combat (it’s not all an excuse to cheap out on animation!) from “Jo Jo’s Bizzare Adventure”. The boxing from “Hajime no Ippo”. The car chases from “Gunsmith Cats.” And so on. Few of these works share genres, but they all share excellent animation, choreography and consistency.

    • I think GL is presenting a theory in this post, not necessarily claiming that it’s always true (which I know he wouldn’t believe). Theoretically, mecha allow for the most possibilities, and if you were to name the series which explored the most possibilities in their combat (Gurren-Lagann, flat-out) they’d be mecha anime. In practice, only so many shows accomplish this, but it’s reasonable to favor a genre for being the one that contains those few shows.

    • Well if you’re talking about execution, then most robot shows are poor. But all things being equal I would still prefer a robot battle. I don’t really care for “The Big O” so I don’t really know. But again, if you are talking about execution, then the number of actual examples that would really be good is miniscule; robot or non-robot.

      As possibility however, there’s more to appreciate in a giant humanoid robot battle than a non-robot one.

      Sword of the Stranger has the greatest sword fight ever, and I am a big fan of sword fight anime. But ultimately, all they can do is tumble around and swing swords. The collateral damage is limited by their human size. They can’t fly. The possibility is limited. But within its limits, it’s one of the most satisfying things in animation I have ever seen.

      Can a pair of mobile suits be animated and directed to reproduce the same kind of sword fight? Yes, absolutely. But they shouldn’t, and never have to. There’s a whole lot MORE things they can do besides swinging blades at each other.

      So, I don’t think we really disagree here.

  5. megaroad1 says:

    Even though I’ve been into anime since childhood, it’s only recently that I started watching Gundam (a year so). I’m pretty dogmatic so I’ve kinda decided to only watch UC to begin with, and as much as possible to watch them chronologically (started with 0079; then watched Zeta and now despite the advice of every sane individual I know I’m enduring ZZ). So far so good. More than anything, I got started because it felt wrong watching mecha anime and not having watched the daddy of it all. And it’s great seeing these old series and finding all these details that have been remade over and over in later series. It kinda feels that its all been done before.

    • Yes, your reasons are mine too. However, the “all been done before” doesn’t bother me so much. Do the great things again, and make it better with updated animation! If you watch all these old shows, so much of the battles are rather lacking. You know what’s possible, but they can’t do it for whatever reason (budget, and other constraints). Also, I always appreciate remembering love, so by all means do the same shows but make them better in some way.

      • Jack says:

        The “we’ve already seen this story!” complaint is reasonable to some extent, but it’s weakened by two factors. One specific to the Gundam franchise and the other applies to the wider nature of stories :

        1) (Specific) Even if a story has already been told before, that doesn’t mean it can’t be explored through a different lens, or enhanced through improved production.

        2) (General) On a much wider scale, most story types have already been “told” countless times, in terms of their structure and possibly even their main events. Yet we keep returning to these narratives and seem to enjoy experiencing them in a different manner.

        • Yes, and people who are sometimes making this complaint about Gundam are to me, less invested in the elements that make it what it is. This is not a bad thing at all, but just a different way of being a fan of something.

          But I also see this complaint from non-fans, and it bothers me how they make this apparent refusal to change the elements as an objective failure of the newer show.

          • megaroad1 says:

            Just to make sure I’m not being misunderstood, when I wrote that it felt like it’s “all been done before”, it was by no means meant as criticism or as a complaint. I actually was meaning to point out that the original Gundam was a pioneer and a trendsetter, and my experience of it was doubly enjoyable by reflecting on it’s influence as a whole on the mecha genre.

  6. oh well, it really saddens me that you really, Really don’t like GSEED n GSDestiny. how I’d wish you’ll glorify it somehow, just a bit. well, since Gundam 00 was your 1st(?) Gundam to watch, then, I’d respect it.

    oh yeah, I thought your an All-Macross guy? :D

    PS: no Gundam Wing? ahaha… :-)

    • I won’t try to watch that crap (Gundam Wing) again until next year.

      GLORIFY? What kind of liar do you want me to become LOL

      I am a lifelong Macross fan. But do you think I should never like anything else? And please do me a favor, read the post in full, follow the links, and perhaps read what I do write about Macross. Maybe then you’ll get what I mean when I do these things.

      Thank you for reading.

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  8. kadian1364 says:

    I feel Gundam is too large and disparate a franchise for me to brand wholesale as “I love it” or “I hate it”. I like some series and love some things the franchise as a whole hits on, but it’s production history is too checkered and narrative styles are too uneven to earn my unyielding affection, even just considering my favorite individual works. It’s lucky that Gundam is not a person, as I can pick and choose what I like and not be stuck with the whole.

    The closest thing I have for love of one anime genre/franchise/studio (discounting Ghibli; who doesn’t like Ghibli?) is my fanboying of studio Gainax. But they’ve also burned me too often for me not to be cautious of their new creative efforts.

    • I know what you mean, but… I obviously really dislike many Gundam shows. It is a natural consequence of the sheer amount, as you say. But what Gundam has over say, Ghibli, is a singular concept — that of the giant humanoid robot. This is the locus of my appreciation in this post. Among all the things going on in anime and its industry, it is the Gundam franchise that can provide what I desire, what I crave for, in the future.

      (As for Ghibli disliking, go ask Executive Otaku).

      Lastly, being a fan of my kind (not that it’s superior to any other kind), is to love — which is to forgive. My fandom is not contingent to quality. I am more a fan of the things I’m on about, than the idea that they met the standards that I lay out (even the ones in posts like these). Like I say about Macross: it isn’t the best show out there, but I favor it above all others precisely because I love it.

      And in the Gundam franchise, there is so much to forgive (and even I don’t forgive a lot of it).

  9. vendredi says:

    There’s arguably no more defining attribute of a fandom than how much they love to hate. Like you pointed out in your post on Macross, the fact that people are vocal with criticism with Gundam is paradoxically a sign of how much they care.

    I think the Gundam franchise in particular, because it has had so very many shows and spin-offs, is just replete with possibility in ways that the other major ‘mech franchises cannot stack up. Every Gundam I’ve found starts with a strong premise: the fate of nations, decided by a tournament (G Gundam); a space colonial war for independence, first with the Gundams on the Earth side (MSG), then the colony side (Wing); then on no side at all (00). A far future where technology has regressed to steam power (Turn A). True, they don’t always live up to the promises inherent in the premise, but there’s a certain brilliance in how the scenarios make the imagination leap.

    • Yes, the franchise does get credit for starting each show very strong on the broad conceptual end. As I mentioned in my eulogy to 00, it’s what got me into the broader franchise — precisely the pains it took to build the world in which the story played out. Perhaps I underestimate the difficulty in which the possibilities can be fulfilled. Nonetheless, I make no excuses for the atrocities I’ve come to detest in some of the shows, though I’m almost always ready to apologize for the wrong turns in the shows I love (e.g. Z Gundam, Stardust Memory).

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