Stop the Hate: Kyoto Animation x Sunrise

Digitalboy should be the blogger to ask when it comes to studio histories, and information on particular directors. Here on We Remember Love I present an amateur’s take on how to heal the dysfunction between fans of anime and the studios which produce them. Here are two studios that have been accused (rightly or wrongly is irrelevant to me) of making anime primarily as a means to advertise related merchendise. I won’t comment on how deep the hate is, but it sure is loud.

I’m talking about Kyoto Animation, which produced a good number of popular game adaptations, as well as two of my favorite anime (that isn’t mecha related): Lucky Star and Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu; and Sunrise, which produces the mighty Gundam franchise (ftw!).

Lucky Star has been panned for excessively referencing Suzumiya Haruhi, though this never bothered me because I do like the series a lot. Gundam shows (and Code Geass R2 in particular) has been made examples of how Sunrise is more than anything a marketing arm of Bandai Toys, makers of Gunpla and other robot sweetness. Here I want to understand why exactly these are terrible things.

Despite how I feel about Gundam 00, which changes from episode to episode, at the end of the day I am a fan of the franchise. I don’t play the role of a guardian of quality. I’m not here to discuss why you may not like it, or to make proclamations (good show, shit show). I’m here to find ways to celebrate my love for these shows, no matter what the current sentiment is about them. This has allowed me to be at peace with myself and the fandom, whose views about the show are immaterial as far as my utility for the anime and its related products are concerned.

I’ve also noticed that it’s quite cool now to dislike the memes, the trappings, and other related subjects that made Haruhi and Lucky Star popular to begin with. While this is interesting to me, worth studying as a social phenomenon on how the perception of quality fluctuates as more people participate in the consumption and discourse of the subject, I don’t have the capacity yet to fully take this on.

In the mean time, I found these videos. These stop-motion works blow me away. They must be the product of a lot of effort, and considerable talent. I cannot divine the purpose of the creators: whether it is to trash the shows, or to celebrate them, but my bet is on the latter.

Hare Hare Yukai Ver.Gunpla

Bonus points for identifying for me the mobile suits that participated in the video. L33T status is bestowed to the commenter that matches each mobile suit to the respective Haruhi Suzumiya characters. C’mon Gundam heads, I know you have it in you!

Motteke! Sailor Fuku Ver. Gunpla

Again, bonus points for identifying the mobile suits that participated in the video. L33T status for the commenter that matches each mobile suit to the respective Lucky Star characters. This can be tricky, but believe in the me who believes in you!

OMAKE: This red Zaku will blow you AWAY.

What mobile suit is this exactly, and from which Gundam show?

Why hate when there’s so much to love?

About ghostlightning

I entered the anime blogging sphere as a lurker around Spring 2008. We Remember Love is my first anime blog. Click here if this is your first time to visit WRL.
This entry was posted in fanboy and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

56 Responses to Stop the Hate: Kyoto Animation x Sunrise

  1. lolikitsune says:

    You fail at life. Will comment again with more details later if you stop failing at life long enough for me to see any worth in interacting with you.

  2. Pingback: Ghostlightning, Studiotolatry & Memes [and other things I missed] « Calamitous Intent

  3. Owen S says:

    In before Kaioshin and other-

    -oh wait, I’m too late.

    Keep on fighting the good fight, ghostlightning! Memetic hate is nothing but idiocy, and should be treated as such.

  4. Sagacious1 says:

    I really don’t get what you’re trying to say.

    First, you admit that both Sunrise and KyoAni tend to zone in on specific niche audiences, then you sit there wondering why that might not appeal to everybody? Are you serious? I sure hope I misread your logic there.

    And overall, I’d say your perspective is a little skewed; Gundam and Haruhi are more beloved than they are hated. Start a thread in any anime forum asking if they love or hate the show (or franchise, in Gundam’s case), and I’m sure you’ll find more fanboys than haters.

  5. schneider says:

    Oh no, a MS ID challenge! Can’t resist…

    First video:
    FA Gundam – Haruhi
    GM Command – Yuki (looks like Duel’s arm got mixed up lol)
    GM Command Space type – Mikuru
    Buster Gundam – Kyon, Itsuki
    Gundam Hazel – Kunikuda
    Strike Gundam – Tsuruya
    MP Guncannon – Taniguchi
    Dom Tropen – Kyon’s sister

    Second video:
    GM Command – Konata, Tsukasa, Kagamin, Miyuki, Yutaka, Minami, Hiyori
    GP02 – Konata
    GM Striker – Kuroi-sensei
    GM Command Space type – Aunt Narumi?
    Regular GM – Miyuki’s mom, Ayano
    GM Sniper – Konata’s dad
    [Rick?] Dom – Random schoolgirls
    Gundam – Misao
    Brown GM (oh God I don’t know what this is exactly) – Patty

    Last video: Gunner ZAKU Warrior, Lunamaria colors, sauce is Gundam SEED Destiny

    I think most of those videos came from plamoo, who is overall an awesome guy with too much time on his hands.

  6. TheBigN says:

    Sagacious: I think the focus is more on how people hate on shows not because of the shows themselves, but how apparently they believe that the shows aren’t focusing on themselves, but also for the purpose of advertising. I guess a better summation is that people think shows are selling out? And if that’s the case, why complain about that when most shows do it anyway (in terms of merchandise and the like)? Maybe because these shows seem more “blatant” than others. I don’t know. 😛

  7. lelangir says:

    sweet my trackback was 2nd.

  8. lelangir says:

    and the post obviously has much more substance than these banal comments. but just for the long run…

    Start a thread in any anime forum…

    Interesting. Classic example of nexistence. ‘Course there are exceptions, like anime suki (I think?), ABC forums (dead though), nano forums that can act more like hideouts for bloggers rather than hideouts from bloggers.

    N: And then there’s the whole “your taste sucks” thing. (I don’t see that often in the ‘sphere though. Could be a forum thing). I don’t want to get heavy-handed (uhoh too late), though you could say that the identity we create for ourselves which is constituted by our anime taste/preference/whatever, is challenged when people talk directly to “our anime selves” and so we have to validate or protect it from marginalization.

  9. Crusader says:

    Simple neither studion has a songstress singing about love without dirtying her hands in the business of war. 😛

    Well you certainly can never please everyone, and to be honest both are still companies looking to make some money, there is no denying. Question is how much do sales affect a show, Gundam SEED and Destiny were in essence toy commercials and Lucky Star was pimping out some merchandise…still so long as these commercials are done well there ought to be no complaints. After all it is often said that the commercials during the Super Bowl here in the States are well worth watching on their own… for instance:

  10. Baka-Raptor says:

    I don’t play the role of a guardian of quality.

    If viewers aren’t the guardians of quality, who is?

  11. tj han says:

    People just want to be COOL! Like that faggot digital boy. It’s not cool to be in with the crowd you know? COOL PEOPLE ARE COUNTER CULTURE.

  12. I pretty much wrote the book on this subject so I’m not sure there’s much I could add, but here goes. I suppose I could say that perhaps we’re looking at another new counter culture with posts like this and the responses I’m seeing to them. Though I can’t help but feel that Ghostlightning just created a troll magnet with nothing but the best of intentions. I mean not only is it counter culture to express any extensive love of anime now in the anime blogosphere, but he picked the two companies that everyone loves to hate and expressed some admiration for them.

    Also it’s weird because Kyoto Animation used to be treated like the be all end all of anime and like they could do no wrong and to some extents that’s still the way it is, but I think what happened is now they’ve become to mainstream, to well known for what they do and thus a target for trolls. To touch upon what Sagacious said, yes you can find a lot of discussion for these two companies shows in any forum AND a fair bit of love, but forums/=blogs. And I think that’s precisely why they are the target of what Owen S calls memetic hate.

    I wrote an article about what I called “Organized trolling” once, but unfortunately I’ve had to since lock because ironically (or perhaps not) it became the target of organized trolling. If anyone is interested in reading it I suppose I can cough up the password to it now.

    By the way, if you really all want to find the source that should be drawing most of the flak for these studios anime series and their at times heavily commercialized and merchandized appeal, look for the common link between them. The one that makes them almost like cousin studios. I’ll give you a hint, the common links name is two words, first word starts with a “K” and ends with an “A”, second word starts with an “S” and ends with an “N”.

    Not that marketing of one’s product is the end of the world of course and not to mention it’s common business sense to try and maximize profit from your product and it’s appeal, but this group does go a little bit overboard and tends to get off scot free while it’s front studios take the brunt of the backlash.

    And what would people say if I told them that even then all of this targeted studio hate is really just outright misguided and amusing because, and believe it or not but it’s the truth, the anime industry is controlled by a triumverate of multi lateral and horizontally integrated concerns that more or less runs the entire marketing, production, printing and investment side of the business. There’s about one degree of seperation from any one popular anime studio to any unpopular one to ANY other one at best and most of the time the walls between them are thin enough that they might as well not even exist at all.

    Feel free to ask for a follow up on any of this folks.

  13. Sakura says:

    I don’t particularly hate any studio, since they all have produced a show I’ve liked.

    I can’t hate Kyoto because they were involved in the FMP series and my beloved InuYasha.

    I will say that apart from Haruhi I haven’t watched anything they’ve produced of late because it simply doesn’t interest me.

    I would have preferred another season of FMP over their latest productions, but while it doesn’t appeal to me I guess it is appealing to the masses.

    Don’t see that as a reason to hate them though, I mean there is plenty of other animation that does interest me to check out.

    Why waste the energy haters? Just go find something else to watch, I’m sure there will be something else out there.

    I do hope with the recent success of MF that KyoAni might be willing to give us another season of FMP though.

    I know, I know I sound like a broken record, but its FMP!!!!!

  14. @Sakura: Actually it was the other one we’re talking about that did Inuyasha.

    Your comment does raise the question I’ve been trying to find an answer to for the longest time though. What is it that so many people find so incredibly great about FMP? I mean it’s alright and I enjoyed the bulk of it, but I wouldn’t even put it in my top 10 mecha series list let alone treat it like the be all end all mecha series. To me it wasn’t even genre defining or all that much of a standout series in my opinion. Well whatever, I still prefer the first season by Gonzo though if we’re going to talk about the good aspects of it.

  15. shirokiryuu says:

    I don’t mind if studios sell themselves because they need to make money anyways. And if it sells, there isn’t a reason to not do it

    I don’t hate any studio, but sometimes I am concerned about them. Like Gonzo, at this rate, I don’t know where it’s heading.

  16. animekritik says:

    To anyone who feel that in-show merchandising ruins a show, I’d politely suggest you crawl into a cave and draw stick figures in the dark: all media sells–products, notions, you name it.

  17. ghostlightning says:

    @ lolikitsune

    Not the comment I’ve been hoping for (ever), but here you are. TT_TT

    @ Owen_s

    It interests me, how people derive value in different ways from different subjects. I suspect that a Nietzchean ‘will to power’ is in play but I don’t have the tools to prove it. I do think this is related to tj_han’s assertion that the activity is a pursuit of counterculture; where the objective is being cool, and get this: the consensus determing quality of coolness is being contrary. Once a series becomes mainstream, or is produced by a mainstream studio, it becomes counterculture to hate them.

    @ Sagacious1

    My inability to be clear is my own responsibility, sorry if I confused you. For a studio or series to acquire hate, it has to be percieved as mainstream. So yes, there should be more fans of the franchise than haters. That said, the haters are loud. Interestingly though, some fans of the franchises voice their rage for the studios, for wrecking their beloved shows.

    As to what I’m trying to say, I invite fans of the shows to relax the hate and add to the body of work like those who made the videos. These things add to the total value related to the franchise.

    @ schneider

    Even if I can’t validate these (Mechafetish please?), you win fanboy points! This post is posted in the ‘fanboy’ category of We Remember Love, so I’m surprised and appreciative of the level of commentary. But you took it on as a great Gundam fan and thank you for playing!

    @ TheBigN

    You touched on the ‘selling out’ bit, which could well be the case. While I don’t think that anyone expects these anime to be made with a mythical artistic integrity associated with legendary musicians, but it’s very important to remember that many musical masterpieces (Mozart: even his Requiem is a comissioned piece). I too am a fan of advertising, marketing, and promotion. I appreciate these activities as a craft, and it entertains me how these studios push the envelope more and more. It was hit or miss with the Pizza Hut placements with Sunrise’s Code Geass, but I enjoyed the seiyuu ‘appearances’ in Lucky Star.

    @ crusader

    Not every franchise can have what ours have, nor should they! 🙂

    As you said, and as with my response to TheBigN, the ads are cultural products in themselves. They actually are awards for them: http://www.clioawards.com/ which can arguably be the validation for their artistic merit. I’ve worked as a copywriter and have interned in an ad agency. The writers and creative people there take their content very seriously and a lot of brainpower and effort goes into their production.

    Also, these products are judged primarily for their effectiveness in selling what they represent. A valid question would be “Why don’t just they lump these shows in the CM awards? Why don’t we all just acknowledge these studios as ad agencies or at least production arms of such?”

    Btw, those ads in the links rock!

    @ Baka-Raptor

    Your comment really confronted me, making me re-examine things. Is it possible to remain a fan and not take on that role? It is something that I’m not interested in doing. The kind of criticism I do relates more to the exploration of themes, tropes, qustions raised by the subject, not whether the subject is good/bad in quality terms. That said, fans such as yourself can play that valuable role.

    @ tj han

    Counterculture has the fascination of coolness. So the pursuit of cool offers an easy path: be contrary to the mainstream. This however requires the mainstream to be uncool, so the pursuers of cool pad their case by making the mainstream uncool. In the cases here, by disparaging the franchise and the studios producing them. This doesn’t make these counterculture types bad or wrong, but it hardly makes them cool, I think.

    Kaioshin suggests posts like this one can be read as an example of a new counter-counter-culture. I don’t think it’s there yet, but I do enjoy being a fanboy and I love the anime I write about (except Project A-Ko, which I hate for admittedly problematic reasons).

    @ Kaioshin Sama

    They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. To say that I don’t appreciate the attention this post is getting is hypocritical. I may not have asked for it in particular, but I do appreciate it, despite my apparent failure at life T_T. I was trying to write an interesting lead-in paragraph to set up the videos, and schneider above, bless his Gundam-loving heart gave me the kind of comment I was hoping for in the first place.

    I am ignorant of the work you put into this subject and I’d would happily educate myself if you’d kindly link me to the relevant posts.

    @ Sakura

    Likewise. I agree that a lot of energy is wasted on hate, though perhaps indifference may be worse. More people are reading this post compared to anything I’ve put more effort in though.

    @ shirokiryuu

    Like you, I don’t hate any studio. I see the sense in what Kaio says about the people mattering more, people are fluid factors in studio production. Shoji Kawamori himself (the patron saint of this blog, or at least this blogger) was a fan of Gundam first and foremost, and eventually worked with Sunrise for The Vision of Escaflowne, and in a Gundam show: 0083: Stardust Memories. Hideaki Anno was an animator for SDF Macross. Kyoto Animation staff, if I’m not mistaken are working on this season’s Kannagi (A-1 Pictures).

    @ lelangir

    I’m working hard addressing your links. Will comment on those respective posts when I feel confident I comprehend them.

    @ animekritik

    Entertainment is indeed a business.

  18. omisyth says:

    When anything becomes too popular, more and more people will begin to hate it for being so mainstream, probably thinking that as they are more of a niche audience for shows with less popoularity they have the right to judge and hate shows which are blindly viewed and praised by the ignorant masses. Let’s face it: Haruhi, Lucky Star, Gundam and CG aren’t the greatest examples of anime ever created, but I guess the fact that thousands of fans think they are just piss off non-fans of the show, and what easier way to hate than to critiscise the show based on the torrents of crappy memes that are created because of it?

  19. ghostlightning says:

    @ omisyth

    I think you’re right. Let’s look at:

    >>as they are more of a niche audience for shows with less popoularity they have the right to judge and hate shows which are blindly viewed and praised by the ignorant masses

    >>what easier way to hate than to critiscise the show based on the torrents of crappy memes that are created because of it

    This isn’t behavior I endorse on this blog, with a name like We Remember Love. I always thought that the opposite of love is not hate, but rather indifference. So if the haters really think they’re punishing the fans, I think they’re doing it wrong.

  20. biankita says:

    bah! i never looked at studios before… but the influence has been come too great because of people who pander/troll it so by the time i got into anime selection for upcoming season a lot of studios have reputations that precedes them *coughs*gonzo*coughs* whatever, i will still watch if the story’s decent enough.

  21. @Omisyth: I still say Haruhi and Lucky Star fit the blind praise charge better than Gundam and CG do. Okay maybe not so much CG, but Gundam at least. Let’s face it, when do you EVER see anybody say something like “I was impressed with how Sunrise handled this episode of Gundam” or something. It’s only ever when somebody thinks they did something the absolute worst way it could ever possibly be done (usually this happens weekly) that you hear people talking about them.

    By contrast you usually can’t go two posts in a Kyoani related thread or blog post without seeing something like “Wow, Kyoani really did a great job at putting x critical scene into this adapation”, when it’s the kind of situation where anybody worth their salt as a script adaptor would have included the scene. Yeah they get criticized a bit now, but frankly to me that’s just making up for the past 2 years where people liked to consider them untouchable. With Sunrise though it’s been the same bashing crap and memery for the last 4 years straight without a break and frankly I think it’s time for at least a mild tone change and for people to lighten up a little or at the very least maybe consider a new hobby. Though this is the blogosphere/memesphere we’re talking about so that’s probably a little to much to ask. Maybe in a decade or so…..

    Anyway the above is why I’m still really not sure about the inclusion of Kyoani in the whole stop the hate thing Ghostlightning has going. Sunrise I understand and am with him full force on (after all like I said I wrote the book on this topic) because they get shit on constantly (and I mean constantly) for things that every studio does or is guilty of, or things that actually shouldn’t even be issues, whereas Kyoani is frequently still treated as this golden boy animation studio that can do no wrong by the vast majority of anime fans.

    To me their situations remain polar opposites among the mainstream crowd. Don’t know much about 4chan though.

    By the way, my sole beef in all of this is that the “criticism” we’re discussing here tends to look like a targetted and orchestrated hate on for certain studios and like people are trying to score points with their counter culture think-alikes as opposed to real criticism and to me that’s just lame and worthy of criticism itself. With people like Ghostlightning coming in to remember love though I’m probably going to end up not having anything to say about this anymore soon enough. Goody.

    @Ghostlightning: Ask me about that article on MSN.

    By the way, you really were better off picking someone like Gonzo to go along with Sunrise in this article. Though unlike the latter I think that Gonzo actually does deserve a fair bit of the flack they’ve been getting. They seem to recognize their own problems internally though and have been working to reorganize so I say let them deal with it now.

  22. ghostlightning says:

    @ Biankita

    Ignorance can be bliss sometimes, but that’s what the haters will try to punish you for.

    @ Kaioshin Sama

    Will do soon enough. I didn’t pick Gonzo because I’m not familiar enough with their titles. I cry ignorance here. I picked sunrise because I sense hate even within its ranks of fans or people who call themselves such.

    And, the dancing Gunpla entertains me… a lot.

  23. lolikitsune says:

    You haven’t really stopped failing at life, ghostlightning, but it’s gotten less bad.

    TBH I don’t know exactly why people have loyalty / hatred for particular studios. Every studio produces a diverse body of work, pretty much. Most of the time, no one’s going to like every show a studio produces. Sunrise does some less than stellar Gundam shows, but it also does Infinite Ryvius and Cowboy Bebop. JC Staff does some amazingly idiotic Kugimiya Rie parade shows, but it also does Asatte no Houkou and Honey & Clover. Kyoto Animation does some unbelievably whorish shows like Lucky Star, but then it also does…

    … okay, so Kyoto Animation’s shows are pretty similar. Until next spring, they’ll all be adaptations. Most of them reference earlier series in unsubtle ways. They all seem to have the same visual style (unlike, say, Production IG’s works which range from GitS to Windy Tales).

    Kyoto Animation I think is one of the most easily recognizable studios and that’s a reason for both its popularity and negative popularity. Because people, as lelangir pointed out in his post, like identifying themselves in terms of their relationship with some well-known entity.

    But lelangir’s point about studiolatry and studio hatred is the only sensical answer I can come up with. I don’t think people hate KyoAni to be counter-culture. I don’t know about their reasons for hating Sunrise, but if we’re talking about the blogosphere, then hating Sunrise is definitely “in”—Jason Miao led the charge, after all. It’s not counter-culture if everyone is doing it. It’s not unique if the guy next to you is saying the same things. And while you could argue that people are dumb and don’t realize that everyone else hates what they hate, you could also examine Jason’s blog and its comments. He inspires Sunrise hatred in people. People pick up his hatred and run with it.

    They should at least be aware of the fact that they’re breathing someone else’s exhaust, right? Right?

    So it’s not counter-culture.

    (Hating something to be counter-culture I think is better ascribed to people who hate Cowboy Bebop etc., shows recognized nigh unanimously as great.)

    But… do we really need to understand hatred or criticism?

    Just to be an ass for a bit and challenge the discussion occurring. Do people need a “good reason” in our eyes to hate something? Do they need to convince us? In other words, do they need to challenge themselves and think?

    Most anime fans don’t like challenging themselves or thinking, a surprisingly large percentage even of anibloggers included.

    Is there some double-standard here, like haters need to have good reasons and fans don’t? I see bloggers like TheBigN who blindly like just about everything. I see bloggers like Jason Miao who watch two episodes of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and then assume it has “killer lolis” and begin forcing (incorrect) memes. And those are only two prime examples in the blogosphere. Go to an anime forum… people are even worse in this regard.

    ghostlightning, you expect to reason with haters, yet all you offer for Kyoto Animation is a shallow “I like Lucky Star.”

    None of this to say that I think discussion should cease and we should all go our separate ways. Just to point out that the majority of haters are doing no different than the majority of fanboys. In fact, they are fanboys. Just, negative fanboys. And, like their positive counterparts, they don’t think a whole lot.

    Personally, I don’t hate any studios. I enjoy Sunrise because they make me laugh at them a lot (every show ends with impaling, etc.) but I don’t hate them irrationally for their bad shows (Mai Otome) or love them irrationally for their good shows (Infinite Ryvius). I don’t really have a concrete judgment of Kyoto Animation because they’re whores and that isn’t normative in my perspective anymore. Also, only futility lies in pigeonholing studios into “hate” or “love” slots. You could hate JC Staff for moe-blob overload no-substance tsundere feces and then dig back to discover Honey & Clover, etc. I think I used that example already, but ah well.

    I’ve also noticed that it’s quite cool now to dislike the memes, the trappings, and other related subjects that made Haruhi and Lucky Star popular to begin with.

    This is more relevant to my interests. Maybe some day I’ll deign to write an honest, no-bullshit, no-trolling analysis of these two shows and why I like what I do about them and dislike what I do about them. Maybe that would clear up some stuff for some people.

    … nah, people would just think I was still trolling.

    Hit me up on IM if you want to talk to me about this stuff, ghosty. I’m not going to puke my thoughts into the ‘sphere anytime soon.

  24. schneider says:

    @ ghostlightning

    Well I’ve got something to add more than my earlier comment which has contributed nothing to the discussion at hand (but thanks for allowing me to brush up on my terrible GM identification skills, hohoho).

    I think studio hate exists partly because some people are too lazy to look up the particular director/writer for the show they hate that they resort to using the studio as a wrapper term. And I’m not immune to this myself, too. My own beef with Lucky Star, however, was that it failed as a comedy for me. That’s that.

  25. ghostlightning says:

    @ schneider

    Follow the link. I think Lbrevis opens the discussion on not knowing the story behind the stories is in the context of anime fandom quite well.

    http://eastanyhow.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/on-being-a-fan-paying-attention-to-creators-or-not/

    @ lolikitsune

    I’m glad that you’ve found enough mercy in you to continue interacting with the fail that is me, and with an IM invite too!

    Obviously, this post should’ve been more rigorously prepared and thought-out if I really was committed to ‘stopping the hate’. It can come of as “I like Lucky Star, you should too.”

    As to understanding hatred, I do feel there is a need for it – not in general terms. If someone said to me that Macross sucked real hard. I do want to know why, even if there’s little probability that either of our minds will be changed by the ensuing discourse.

    I do need to refine these ideas, given that I am pursuing a sharing writing style, or paradigm if you will as opposed to telling, not that the former is necessarily superior or privileged; I just find it more suitable for my purposes of reminding people of love to be inviting than commanding (telling them not to hate).

    Back to the drawing board I go.

  26. lolikitsune says:

    Dear Webmaster,

    Here is a translation of my first comment on this post, as your trollikitsune dictionary seems to be out of date: “I’m tired, will comment in the morning when I wake up.”

    Anyway.

    Understanding hatred is a good goal, but I’d like to see equal challenges to love. Too often do I see someone saying that they don’t need to explain why they like something, that objectivity doesn’t matter, etc. I’ve heard “you don’t need a reason to like something” a million times. In the end, that’s the same as disliking something with no good reason.

    Mindless emotions are mindless, etc.

    People need to think more, and challenge themselves to understand their feelings more. Be those feelings hatred for a studio’s gimmicks and whoredom or love for a bad show (such as Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka).

    Anyway, risking Owen shoving his penis up my nose again, I am once more sharing an IM conversation I had with someone. It should illustrate a few things I believe in.

    On Disagreement

    Cheers!
    -dr. lolikit

  27. animekritik says:

    @ ghostlightning (all this time i thought it was ghostlighting)

    There’s no need to be apologetic. Love is nice. However,

    @ lolikitsune

    Putting love and hate on the same level is insightful, a fanboy and a hater are two sides of the same coin. Still, you add “People need to think more, and challenge themselves to understand their feelings more”. Why?? That sort of introspection is unseemly! Are we in need of shrinks now?
    Analyze the shows, stop analyzing yourselves.

  28. lolikitsune says:

    Why?? That sort of introspection is unseemly! Are we in need of shrinks now?

    Not all rational thought is “unseemly introspection.” If I wonder to myself, “why do I like AIR?” and then I come up with the answer that “oh hey, I like AIR because the environment it portrays is absolutely gorgeous speaks to my aesthetics, and in spite of the show’s countless flaws, I am drawn to that environment,” that’s not introspection. It’s reasoning.

    And reasoning is all I want to see.

  29. lolikitsune says:

    P.S. for clarity’s sake, when I say feelings, I don’t mean “omg my parents don’t love me and I have no friends, what’s wrong with me, I must investigate!!” I mean all feelings on all levels, and particularly those relevant to this discussions—a feeling of liking a show or studio, a feeling of disliking a show or studio.

  30. ghostlightning says:

    @ animekritik

    Don’t worry. It’s not an apology like “I’ve totally wronged you and please forgive me”

    It’s more like “thanks for taking time to see things the way you do and pointing it out to me, I’ll do better next time… sorry about the sloppy writing/reasoning”

    Subjectivity aside, I’m with Lolikit on this one, which brings…

    @ Lolikitsune

    Thanks for sharing that IM conversation.

    The reasons why Konoe might have loved Nadesico may be different for why I love Lucky Star, or Macross for that matter. These reasons do not render an objective way to appreciate the show. But I don’t think your interest in reasons for loving/liking is limited to that.

    I’m thinking, when a viewer hates on something – there’s almost always an immediate justification (i.e. there’s too much merchandise pushing). I don’t think the justifications are as quick to be cited for cases of loving the show – at least in my case.

    It’s as if, the merits of the show are obvious. This is even more of the case if the series is popular, or the franchise is well-established.

    I like Lucky Star because the characters are very cute, and I rather enjoyed the lack of plot – and instead were given slow reveals. It wasn’t like the characters were headed anywhere trying to accomplish things, but rather I felt let into their lives and shown their amusing characters. It’s a voyeuristic pleasure, as I suspect is part of the appeal of slice-of-life shows. Lucky Star gave me comforts of the familiar, the easy parade of tropes and otaku references, the sibling dynamics that’s easy for me to relate to, the lolicon, etc.

    Lucky Star may not even be a unique anime or 4koma, and there are others who can provide what I discussed in the preceding paragraph. But the first girl wins trope applies in my case.

    This is similar to my Macross worship. I had discussed with Kaioshin that if Gundam 00 were a Macross show, I’d find myself oblivious to the faults I’m seeing in it now, and wouldn’t be complaining. Granted, I don’t complain much in my own posts, but I still do so in comments, on twitter, etc.

    Reading about your relationship with AIR, brought me some perspective. Do I think the shows I like, and am passionate about are perfect shows. Does the 10 I gave SDF Macross in MAL indicative of objective perfection?

    No. It’s more like, the awesomeness herein will make the flaws irrelevant. For a lot of Gundam shows I’ve seen, the awesomeness wasn’t enough to make me ignore the flaws. Even so, anyone can reason that Macross is the first girl that won, contextualizing my idolatry in harem trope terms.

    Gundam is like Kittan to my Yoko, with Macross being Kamina.

    So if there’s an acknowledgment of flaws, so why invalidate the haters who justify their hate based on these acknowledged flaws?

    Invalidation is not my purpose. Invalidating others is a waste of my time. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind about what they like or don’t like, but the videos posted here are posted in the spirit of sharing, an invitation to re-create/re-invent an experience. The commanding tone of the post title undermines this, is what I’m considering now.

  31. @lolikitsune: Same here, all I’d like to see is reasoning as well or something to make clear that people are indeed holding a position out of their own belief and not because they read it on Derailed by Darry or something. If people would say something like, “I hate x because” or “I like y because” more often and then proceed to give a valid reason as to why then people would hear almost nothing from me ever on this subject other than perhaps an “I see” or a “suit yourself”. I’d already have my answers.

    For the record I used to love challenging peoples love of Kyoani until they finally started giving some answers as to why they liked their work and started making some concessions as to their shortcomings (meeting me halfway can be huge in terms of making a counter-argument believe it or not) and then I pretty much backed off. No entity is infalliable or all-encompassing no matter what some would like us to believe.

    It’s the fact that in most cases people are usually too dim to actually justify their position and probably don’t actually know the reason for their position other than that they are supposed to take it because it’s the “in” thing to do that I tend to press for answers or proceed to ridicule them for their incredibly weak position though. And there is no better example of this then what Ghostlightning brings up in this topic. The pointless and over the top hate. Where is the justification as to why people think that Sunrise is the scum of the anime industry and why we should all hate and be wary of them and their works? All I see are memes and one-liners of the Miao variety.

    In fact I’ll even give an example of justification of hatred right now. I think Mai-Hime sucks the big one because in my opinion it fails to balance it’s comedy and drama well, fails to live up to the usual standards of good music in a Sunrise series, is overflowing with female characters to the point where I’m dying for some stronger male leads, exploits it’s fanservice to the nth degree and has that infamous cop out ending.

    That wasn’t hard, which leaves me to wonder why so few can do it.

    Nice save on the last comment by the way. And if you are looking for a challenge I have one for you. Find me something good that Jason Miao did in terms of blogging……..ever. I have a feeling that I’ve sent you on a wild goose chase, but this could prove interesting nonetheless.

  32. I can’t make too much comment since I refuse to rad all these other comments but I’ll just say I’m glad you recognize that this isn’t a problem. Because otherwise I’d hate your blog.

  33. lelangir says:

    some fuckin’ epic comments that I’m too lazy to read right now, but….re; lolikits’ long ass one:

    But… do we really need to understand hatred or criticism?

    Just to be an ass for a bit and challenge the discussion occurring. Do people need a “good reason” in our eyes to hate something?

    No, not necessarily. I think this is the pit that al|together guy dug himself into in his “anti-reading” of that porno thing [see here].

    I’d say the desire to understand is quite a..uh…egostical(?) thing. Perhaps that stems all the freakin’ way back from Greece. Yeah, with those old gay men. That’s probably western culture for you. And of course, those that defy that canon of understanding are labled as x,y,z and every other meme under the sun. It’s quite hard to divest yourself of that philosophy, but to me it seems like the notion of understanding is more about society rather than the self, it’s to prove your status as a knowledgable person or w/e.

  34. Pingback: The DVD Collection Part 2: Akira « Lower Mid-Table

  35. ghostlightning says:

    @ digitalboy

    So… it would take so little for you to hate my blog?

    @ lelangir

    There are 2 ‘understanding’ phenomena that I’m considering here now.

    1. The understanding that the self requires to remain in control (so to speak) of the world. Without this understanding the self cannot function effectively. I need to understand this:

    >>21stcenturydigitalboy

    I can’t make too much comment since I refuse to rad all these other comments but I’ll just say I’m glad you recognize that this isn’t a problem. Because otherwise I’d hate your blog.

    If I can’t, I’m at a loss how to deal with his nexistence. Should I be concerned? Worried? That a mistake I make in a post, or a misperception I’m responsible for in my writing is worthy of HATE?.

    2. The other understanding is expressive, and is expressed with an intent (I suspect) of demonstrating power over a subject (by naming it: trainwreck, memes etc.)

    The post you linked to read like an exercise of showing off a domination over a theory and the subject it’s applied to. The will to power is quite apparent, due to the use of references of familiarity with the author of the subject, and the threat of “laughing at people” who will make the mistake of seeing things differently.

    So in this case (2), you have both ego and social needs/wants being served; whereas (1) while both needs are addressed, it is more of a survival and less of a domination game.

  36. digitalboy says:

    I’m surprised you take that so literally and do not recognize that I am saying it is a fundamental principle of your personality which draws me to your blog.

  37. ghostlightning says:

    @ digitalboy

    Don’t be surprised. I’m actually quite raw about how the issues in this post is bigger than my ability to process them. No one really likes feeling they are less than what they see themselves to be. I feel like so many tangents are available and exciting to follow, but may lead me to dilute what you say as the fundamental personality of the nexistence “ghostlightning”

    It’s an embarrassment of riches, I think, but I’m being extra-careful because I need to know better what I’m agreeing with or disagreeing with here among the commenters. I have a goal of remaining authentic, and being consistent with my own statements given the easy conflicts that arise from this hobby, and how all over the place I am commenting in many blogs (following lelangir alone takes me all over the place). So I apologize for coming off the way I did. Sorry I didn’t ‘get it’.

    Whew, n00b blogger is tired, but thankful nonetheless for everyone who visited here.

  38. Pingback: Shallow For Gundam « Continuing World

  39. lolikitsune says:

    @Kaioshin Sama

    In fact I’ll even give an example of justification of hatred right now. I think Mai-Hime sucks the big one because in my opinion it fails to balance it’s comedy and drama well, fails to live up to the usual standards of good music in a Sunrise series, is overflowing with female characters to the point where I’m dying for some stronger male leads, exploits it’s fanservice to the nth degree and has that infamous cop out ending.

    Huh. I liked the music a lot, and thought the abrupt swing from comedy to drama was well-done. That said, it wasn’t a good show. I’m with you on the other points. Still, it was fun (especially while recovering from oral surgery).

    And if you are looking for a challenge I have one for you. Find me something good that Jason Miao did in terms of blogging……..ever. I have a feeling that I’ve sent you on a wild goose chase, but this could prove interesting nonetheless.

    I actually think that I know two or three good things he did in terms of blogging. I’ll do some research, write something up, and post it on MoMM when I’ve got the time.

    @lelangir

    but to me it seems like the notion of understanding is more about society rather than the self, it’s to prove your status as a knowledgable person or w/e.

    … interesting thoughts. I definitely seek to understand because society exists—if it were only me, there’d be no point—but I don’t think I seek to understand in order to prove my status in any way. The more I understand, the better I can behave. I can interact with people with minimum damage if I can understand them. That’s my main goal, most of the time, believe it or not.

  40. Sakura says:

    @ Kaioshin Sama, I liked FMP for many reasons, the animation was good, the voice acting excellent.

    No it wasn’t groundbreaking but I really did like a lot of the characters and the mix of action and comedy seemed to flow nicely.

  41. lolikitsune says:

    P.P.S. I’ve never seen so many people agree with me before! *egasm*

  42. TheBigN says:

    In fact I’ll even give an example of justification of hatred right now. I think Mai-Hime sucks the big one because in my opinion it fails to balance it’s comedy and drama well, fails to live up to the usual standards of good music in a Sunrise series, is overflowing with female characters to the point where I’m dying for some stronger male leads, exploits it’s fanservice to the nth degree and has that infamous cop out ending.

    My bias will show now. 😛

    As with lolikitsune, I think the switch from comedy to drama was well done (in my experience, only a handful of shows held my interest and made me care about the characters better than Mai-HiME), and I felt the balance up until the end was pretty good. I’ll agree that the ending was a cop out, but it was alright to me, because I saw the show as happy fun times first and foremost rather than serious business. So while the abrupt shift back wasn’t handled well, moving back to the initial tone still works for me.

    More of my bias is showing in that I thought the music by Yuki Kajiura was excellent (she’s one of my favorite composers, so yeah) and fit the show well, as well as one of the best works she’s ever done.

    I do wish that the main males in the story (the ones that matter more) had more depth to them, and I guess less indecision to them, and while I laughed at and enjoyed the fanservice, I do wish there was less of it.

    But with that, as with everything else I mentioned, it’s all just a matter of personal preference. 😛

  43. Sean says:

    Saying that Haruhi and Lucky Star are two of your favorite anime kind of kills your credibility.

  44. animekritik says:

    @ Sean

    You should add “in my eyes”, as in “Kills your credibility in my eyes”, otherwise we’ll all think you believe in an objective reason why Haruhi and LS shouldn’t be on a person’s favorites list…

  45. Short answer: Without HATE, there IS no LOVE.

    Long answer:

    There is something else greater in the world. Something that’s beyond the genital-sucking, fan-baiting, merchandice-promoting, and the general hearandthere you can get away with in anime but not in real life.

    It’s deeper than the “fake deep” you’ve gotten from Evangelion. It’s realer than the “fake real” you’ve gotten from the memes and the anime that use them. And it’s worth more than the some-odd 6000 yen you (don’t) spend on anime.

    And for the record:

    KyotoAnimu? $unrise? I’d appreciate those companies more when they’re not using as a punching bag anybody with a penis. But it’s not just these two companies; it’s the whole (late night) anime industry and the fans who support it.

    Don’t believe me? Go on ahead.

    Kannagi’s Nagi and Strike Witches’ Minna had been dissed for not being “pure virgins.” The voice actor for Deathnote’s Kira and Gundam 00’s Setsuna had been dissed because he “dared to marry someone after getting her pregnant” (which, to him, was an amazing feat). And the so-called fanbase had spat on the voice actor for Seed Destiny’s Shinn Asuka.

    Can you good kids say, “Beyond Saving?”

  46. Pingback: A Certain Whoredom Index: Two And A Half Good Things About Jason Miao « Miao on My Mind

  47. picchar says:

    There are some cases where I irrationally hate something, but I don’t think there has been one that involved an anime.

    As for studios, the only ones I know are Sunrise and GAINAX. I have heard (read) of other studios but ask me to connect a series to a particular studio and I will fail miserably.

    The reason for this is because I don’t care which studio did which anime. For me, all that matters is if the series entertains me or not. Why should it matter if one or another’s purpose is to sell related merchandise?

    I’m not good with words like a bunch of you here are, but my point is, if you like it, then YAY~!!!1!one! If you don’t, then move on, find another series to watch.

    Then again, all this drama is fun to read. ^_^v

  48. ghostlightning says:

    @ Tyrenol

    There’s something to be said about passion, which is a qualifier to the expression you’ve shared here.

    I don’t find it bad at all!

    My aversion to hate, is the kind that is unreflected on, the kind that is inauthentic in that “I didn’t really choose to hate X for myself”; the motivation lies elsewhere (in order to be cool, in order to be trendy, in order to whatever). While I can never prove this about anyone, I do trust my intuition most of the time.

    It’s the same with bandwagon fandom. While I see no problem joining the Gundam capital ship this late in the game, I made sure I ask myself the questions that lead me to why and how I can really enjoy the show/franchise. After spending the whole year being tsundere for Gundam, I happily count myself among its fans.

    @ picchar

    Nice to see you again! The thing here is that people enjoy anime in different ways. No single way is necessarily better than another. Like you, my wife couldn’t care less about the studios and other things beyond the show itself (except merch, she buys ’em). Some of us really enjoy “the stories behind the stories” and these involve writers, seiyuu, and yes studios.

    And, since you do get fun out of reading teh drama, it’s not quite different with how people enjoy the backstories of the anime they watch.

  49. picchar says:

    ^_^/

    Oh, don’t get me wrong. When I said I don’t care about who made, I meant that it’s irrelevant to me liking an anime or not. Though I’m not very familiar with the different studios, I am interested in their different styles, be it working style or the art style of the anime.

    I also have my favorite seiyuu and enjoy finding out when two characters I like actually share the same voice. For example, Aya Hirano who did both Konata and Haruhi (though I don’t really like Haruhi… Love Konata though ^o^). I only found out about this after completing Lucky Star in two days (addicting @.@). I can’t express it in English, but: aliw!!

    Basically for me, I like each series for itself: the story, the characters, the art style, the music. The behind the scene stuff is really interesting but it’s not a reason for me to like or dislike a series.

  50. ghostlightning says:

    @ picchar

    Aliw indeed. For me it won’t get in the way of my liking a series but it sure can add to it! I really like Aya Hirano’s Konata, I really like her work there – check the OVA she does some epic melodramatic shouts.

  51. picchar says:

    I actually watched the OVA first because I was curious what it was all about. I couldn’t understand it so I watched the series then the OVA again. Glad I did. I love it~! ^^

  52. picchar says:

    Oh! I suddenly remembered. I know another animation studio/company: Toei Animation. They have a branch in the Phils actually. Had a tour with a friend. It was so cool ^o^

  53. ghostlightning says:

    @ picchar

    Yeah I know about Toei. My wife’s cousin and her husband works there. They’re still doing the Futari we Pretty Cure (franchise), and One Piece. I haven’t been to the place, but I see their bus going around Pasig where we live.

  54. Pingback: Fans of Gundam Love their Franchise Like Saji Loves Louise « We Remember Love

  55. Pingback: Creativity and Laziness: Four Fags Who Run Anime Blogs « We Remember Love

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s