The Second of Six Posts on Macross Frontier Sayonara no Tsubasa: A Tale of Two Movie Adaptations–Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann vs. Macross Frontier

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We (the founders of We Remember Love) watched the culmination of the Macross Frontier saga together and in grand fashion: using an office board room and a high-end projector. It is only fitting, as the Macross Frontier sub-franchise is, and had always been the representative anime for this blog. Yes, our favorite show is Super Dimension Fortress Macross, but is Macross Frontier that remembers love, and is the show that in 2008, got us following anime blogs and finally start one ourselves.

This post will be the second of six I’ll make on this film, and relatedly, Macross Frontier as a sub-franchise and Macross as a franchise as a whole. I’m not hung up on destiny, but I find it entertaining to imagine how the destiny of Macross Frontier is intertwined with that of We Remember Love. Now, the second discussion calls for a comparison with another show we love: Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

[Commie] Macross Frontier the Movie ~Sayonara no Tsubasa~ [BD 1080p AAC] [66AE8F11].mkv_snapshot_01.27.09_[2011.10.30_15.43.24]

One of the very first notions I asserted here on We Remember Love is this:

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is to Super Robot Anime as is Macross Frontier is to Real Robot Anime.

I compared the two TV Series based on their um, cavalier attitude towards logic, if and when it got in the way of presenting a spectacle. The finales of both TV series presented spectacles that went beyond what the entirety of the robot anime tradition had offered. I had certainly not seen anything like those before.

Now they are worth comparing again because both series followed up by offering two-part feature films based on the story presented by the respective series. I had seen all of these, and both provide contrasting results.

[Commie] Macross Frontier the Movie ~Sayonara no Tsubasa~ [BD 1080p AAC] [66AE8F11].mkv_snapshot_01.26.25_[2011.10.30_15.40.28]

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Gurren-Hen and Lagann Hen are failures wherein Macross Frontier Itsuwari no Utahime and Sayonara no Tsubasa are triumphs.

Why? How did this happen?

First, in the case of TTGL, what it had was a self-contained and already amazing TV series that achieved everything it set out to do. As far as I’m concerned it is as near perfect a super robot anime can get. It remembered so much love for all these things I loved as a fan of anime and honored these by making such a great, uplifting spectacle of itself.

The movies were executed as compilation narratives, which then resulted in removing, glossing over, and minimizing many smaller things that made TTGL feel whole and complete. Having removed this value, how then can it compensate the viewer who is already a fan?

It improved the animation, but with rather limited results. The stylized nature of Imaishi’s work possesses a rare genius in that it looks good with a TV anime budget, and something that neither more money and time contribute to making such a dramatic difference. Thus, they just made more of the same over-the-top stuff, STUFFED ON TOP of what’s already beyond the impossible. This was no good for me at all.

I did like the time-skip montage that portrayed the reconstruction of Teppelin into Kamina City, and the whole hacking sequence using Lord Genome’s sprite, but everyone getting their own Tengen Toppa mecha? Not so much. Making something twice bigger than the final robot in the TV series? Not cool, especially if all it was, is a bright green Kamina that slapped on the name SUPER Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Instead of being impressive, it felt cheap.

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Both film versions cheapened the experience of provided by Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann the TV series. Sorairo Days suddenly playing while the final speeches were being delivered in episode 27 is one of my favorite moments in anime, period. The finale in the film made the final fight way, waaay too long. The final fist fight was unwanted overkill.

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Nothing of substance was added, and many things of value was lost.

Itsuwari no Utahime was good, but it didn’t rock my world. It changed a few things, but these changes felt more like compromises to tell a concise story. There were no doubt awesome moments, but it wasn’t going to make me prefer the film to the TV series by any stretch. This all changed with Sayonara no Tsubasa.

The second film serves to wrap up the whole Frontier sub-franchise. It would give a finale that leaves far less things to question. On the minds of many fans, was the resolution of the love triangle. This film resolved it with finality. No more questions, no more speculation. Alto picked Sheryl after he turned Ranka down. Gentle, apologetic, considerate, but crystal clear: Sheryl won the love triangle.

[Commie] Macross Frontier the Movie ~Sayonara no Tsubasa~ [BD 1080p AAC] [66AE8F11].mkv_snapshot_01.45.17_[2011.10.30_18.33.58]

I don’t want to get into the other plot details, but I do think that this compressed telling made for a clearer conflict, and a cleaner if just as complicated presentation of villainy. Sure it was plot-twisty, and involved heel-face turns galore, but it was satisfying because the spectacle was worth it, not that the spectacle wasn’t already out of this world in the TV series. This is about something else.

Compared to TTGL, Macross Frontier had several problems with telling and resolving its story. Some more problematic than others. Most notable of course is the resolution of the love triangle. It was never clear. Now it is. What I’m saying here is that the Macross Frontier films have an easier time adding value to the fans of the franchise because the value of the TV series leaves a lot of room for improvement. There is very little in TTGL that I would change, and what the movies changed were not satisfying enough, and disappointing in other ways.

The Macross Frontier films were successful in the way the Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam trilogy of movies were intended to be. The cavalier attitude towards canon that the whole Macross franchise has will prevent the utter meaninglessness the Z Gundam movies befalling it. The Z Gundam films are non-canon, and thereby eliminates all good reason to view them, which puts to waste the noble effort of erasing Mobile Suit ZZ Gundam from the official canon.

[Commie] Macross Frontier the Movie ~Sayonara no Tsubasa~ [BD 1080p AAC] [66AE8F11].mkv_snapshot_01.45.42_[2011.10.30_18.34.45]

Thus, there may be a pattern, or some kind of rule-of-thumb that governs film adaptations of anime series. The Mobile Suit Gundam Original Movie Trilogy is more like a compilation movie than a re-imagining like Macross: Do You Remember Love? but what it did, was to remove all distracting and compromising elements in the TV series of Mobile Suit Gundam in addition to adding new animation (and improving the animation from the TV show) such that the value added is beyond welcome. The first of the two Space Runaway Ideon movies, A Contact, was criticized for its compression of the TV series narrative, but the second film, Be Invoked, added something so remarkable that it is a classic all on its own, influencing such works as Neon Genesis Evangelion: The End of Evangelion.

The pattern is maintained in the Rebuild of Evangelion film series. The first film was incredibly faithful to the beginning episodes of the TV series, the second film we start to see fundamental changes, new characters, and hints on how the future films will go differently from the rest of the TV series and even End of Evangelion. Like with Macross Frontier, not everyone was satisfied with how the TV series ended, as remarkable the whole thing was.

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I don’t presume that I can predict future quality in the film adaptations to come, but I think the idea of revisionary/rebuilding/additive films in relation to TV series with acknowledged problems having more value, than film adaptations of TV series that have much fewer problems… has merit.

The Ongoing Post Series:

  1. The Top 3 ASDFGHSDFG Moments in Sayonara no Tsubasa
  2. A Tale of Two Movie Adaptations: TTGL vs. MF [you are reading this]
  3. The Resolution of the Triangle
  4. The Rehabilitation of Characters: Ranka, BreraAlto, Grace
  5. Going Beyond the Impossible: The Reconstruction of a Canon
  6. Sheryl Nome: The Most Awesome Woman in Anime

I mentioned these so I can have some order in the conversations to come.

About ghostlightning

I entered the anime blogging sphere as a lurker around Spring 2008. We Remember Love is my first anime blog. Click here if this is your first time to visit WRL.
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91 Responses to The Second of Six Posts on Macross Frontier Sayonara no Tsubasa: A Tale of Two Movie Adaptations–Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann vs. Macross Frontier

  1. Pingback: The Top 3 ASDFGHJK Moments of Macross Frontier The Wings of Goodbye | We Remember Love

  2. Xard says:

    Yeah, I pretty much agree with you here. Sayonara no Tsubasa set a new standard for me when it comes to adapting tv series in big screen format. Anno has a lot to learn from Frontier’s film version when it comes to Rebuild.

    It’s also nice to see I’m not only one who thought TTGL films were rather lame failures.

    • I really have a very low opinion of the TTGL movies. I really felt kind of bad watching them, especially the second one.

      • Xard says:

        I thought the second one was better than first one simply due to there being more new footage which made the whole thing at least little bit less boring. Still, the film finale stands as a proof that higher production values and even more technical brilliance in animation does not automatically translate into better action. The final fight in film completely lacks good manipulation of tension and the pacing is just whack. It’s meaningless fanservice that fails to excite beyond “oh wow, GAINAX sure has tons of talented sakuga animators” angle.

  3. moeplusmecha says:

    That confirms what I thought Z Gundam and Gurren Lagann movies were like based on what I heard before and decided not to watch them. Frontier movies are definitely valuable and an amazing spectacle. This was a good writeup.

    Does anyone have an opinion on the difference between Turn A Gundam and the movies for it? I can’t imagine the movies being able to add much.

    • Thank you for the generous compliment.

      I haven’t seen the Turn A movies, but they do not come recommended (by my friends who are more experienced in Gundam than I am).

      • Reid says:

        Seconded. Many many things are glossed over and left out. They are truly some awful movies, though not as bad as, say, “The Last Blitz of Zeon”, which pretty much WORKED a story that was already on the fairly weak side by compressing it further.

        • Matt Wells says:

          Oh sweet Jesus does Last Blitz of Zeon suck out loud. At least Miller’s Report was just a glorified recap episode that added actual meat to the plot. The 0083 movie was just an outright mess. Plot threads go off on tangents that are never resolved, a good portion of the better action scenes are cut, and character deaths that have meaning and pathos just… don’t happen.

          The bit where Kou goes on about all the sacrifices he’s made to get this far (to stopping Gato) has no real meaning when editing just excised Lt. Kelly Layzner and Captain Burning. One minute they’re there, the next they’re gone. They even cut out the upbeat ending, the credits just roll on text after Kou’s trial. And of all the gall, the only new animation they added was a superfluous CG shot of turing colonies. Terrible rush job and a blatant cash in on Sunrise’s part. Even worse was that this abomination aired in theaters before they released the actual final two episodes.

          What they SHOULD have done was just cut straight into Operation Stardust, expanding the battle between the Federation and the Delaz Fleet. They could have given us more awesome space battles, flesh out the rushed ending, perhaps even come up with a resolution to the main love triangle that didn’t make you want to headbutt rusty nails. Instead we got a rush hack job. Dreadful stuff.

          • Reid says:

            That’s a wonderful description of something truly awful. So it’s…awfully wonderful!

          • plasticzaku says:

            How the hell does someone ruin 0083?!!! That sounds even more FUBAR than the second Z movie.

            I love you, Sunrise… I hate you, Sunrise.

    • plasticzaku says:

      The wonderful thing about all the Macross movies I’ve seen is they’re alternate retellings (in-universe historical dramatization?) instead of mere compilation with cuts. In general, Gundam movie compilations add nothing and you’re better off watching the whole damn thing. The only exception to this rule is the movie trilogy of the original Mobile Suit Gundam, and this is because the show got cancelled and the ending had to be rushed.

      (No spoilers) Turn-A is by far my favorite Gundam TV series, and was also my gateway Gundam, so I wholeheartedly recommend watching it in all its glory. Tomino finally got to make a Gundam the way he wanted, finally kinda figured out what pacing is, and there’s hardly any filler. I love that it’s full of easter eggs for those already familiar with the franchise, but can be fully enjoyed by newcomers with no background too. The movies are pretty much just compilation, and the only eng subs I’ve found were so bad I could write better ones from memory.

      If you want to watch Z Gundam, watch the series. The movies are a mixed bag… it’s mostly compilation with some parts re-animated for flow, and the ending is changed. The shiny new digital animation noticeably contrasts with the old TV animation, which offends a lot of viewers right there. I loved the first movie and thought the tweaks were a vast improvement on the TV. Better flow, Kamille and Fa are more sympathetic. The second movie was a complete and utter train wreck that tried to cram in all the filler subplots and named cannon fodder of the week from the show, while cutting out part of Four’s arc. Third movie gets back on track but cuts Quattro’s speech and the conversation over whiskey. Final battle aftermath changed, and epilogue added.

      • plasticzaku says:

        The other exception I forgot to add is the Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz movie. Practically nothing was trimmed from the OVA and some nice moments are added in.

  4. Chan says:

    I really liked this movie for basically effectively pulling off the What if scenario that I’ve always seen brought up by Ranka fans in the forums, especially after the head script writer outright said that it was Sheryl who won in the tv series.(he had more power than Kawamori in the tv series–the novels also refer to her as the woman that Alto loves), and he only took it out because he felt that there were too much problems with Alto’s character to let him choose. This movie was basically answered for us, what if the roles were reversed, what if it was Sheryl who was the traitor, and Ranka was responsible, independent, more mature, more considerate, didn’t make her life revolve around a person she just met and barely knew, knew Alto longer, and spent more time with him; would Alto love Ranka then, would Sheryl make the same mistakes that Ranka did? This movie answered those questions with a resounding no.

    Sheryl didn’t make the same choices as Ranka, she didn’t keep vital information to herself,

    This is why this movie worked it was a role reversal what if scenarios and altered the characters accordingly so that they could make it work.

    • Xard says:

      Are you seriously suggesting the films were scripted around *that* one aim?

      LMFAO

      • No I don’t think he was, but it speaks to a great desire we, the founders of WRL have had all this time.

        The very name “We Remember Love” was the supposed name for a fanfic we never got to write — to be done in the spirit of what Chan presented up there. It was a great question and it articulated very clearly a lot of what we felt. Since we never wrote the fic, we used it for this blog instead. We’ll never have to write it because Sayonara no Tsubasa solved our problems.

        • Chan says:

          ^^ Basically this, the movie may not have been made with this in mind, but the fact that it still answers the question that has been constantly posted in forums hasn’t changed.

          • Xard says:

            Bullfuckingshit from the unproved premise that Ranka was a traitor in the tv series to most everything that follows.

            Yeah, it sure answers directly many fan questions if that’s how *one chooses to interpret* the whole thing. But that scenario is way too shaky and arbitrary otherwise.

      • Xard says:

        I mean seriously now. Sayonara no Tsubasa sets up couple of scenes as “what if” takes on couple of series scenes, kinda like what DYRL did with SDFM, but overall I’m not sure how seriously you’re suggesting this. Film versions being written as kind of reflection on and answer to fan debate (going in this very specific form in western forums no less!) is just silly. Especially since a lot of connections, Ranka “failing” her gig as “Songstress of hope” and Sheryl being Galaxy Spy, are too strenuous and the individual narrative elements too distinct to be plays on each other. Sheryl should’ve been made into Songstress of Hope and all for this to feel even remotely plausible.

        As it is there are far more differences between Ranka’s claimed “betrayal” in tv series (kind of hard to even take this seriously since there’s no hard evidence for this, just interpretations one way or another) and Sheryl’s seriously remodeled backstory than similarities.

        This also ignores such important considerations that Ranka being turned into Alto’s friend was most likely creative choice made in order to have the story flow better more than anything else. Utahime wouldn’t have had time to establish Alto’s relationship with TWO new girls on top of that so relegating one to acquintance already was sensible move comparable to Hikaru being part of military from DYRL’s beginning.

        Like good heavens Kawamori might’ve wanted to tell a story with different thematic focal points, deal with some of his frustrations on tv series, try out new ideas and all. Oh no, it was all done to show “if Sheryl would make Ranka’s mistakes if positions were reversed”.

        You’ve spent too much time on the Ranka/Sheryl axis of fandom debates if you let it influence your interpretation of films to *this* extent.

        • Chan says:

          I guess you missed it but Ranka is the songtress of hope in this movie as well, except she didn’t fail at it, she told the others what was going on. Again your such a fanboy that you can’t admit when your favorite character is in the wrong.

          The thing about role reversals is that they are not always the same scene for scene. No a good role reversal reverses the scenarios that two characters face, while making changes where it needs to in order to make them fit. Ditto for what if scenarios, they do not always have to be exact re-tellings as all they do is explore possibilities brought up in the series.

          • Xard says:

            “I guess you missed it but Ranka is the songtress of hope in this movie as well, ”

            Songstress of hope was prettily named smoke screen for what happens through episodes 16-21. A development which never happens in the filmverse as Grace never got to draft her and Brera spills the beans out about the operation to her beforehand. I’m not sure what you are referring in turn with songstress of hope

            >except she didn’t fail at it, she told the others what was going on.

            “telling the others what was going on” has jackshit to do with whole Leon/Grace project in itself. Which IS the whole “Songstress of Hope” deal. It was all propaganda and bs to begin with.

            >Again your such a fanboy that you can’t admit when your favorite character is in the wrong.

            Ranka fucked up BIG TIME in original tv series. It was understandable but nonetheless undeniable that she sinned in a way I can’t think of any Macross hero to do in ep 16 when she goes along with it the whole project despite her innermost feelings of it being wrong. Eventually it took a full scale genocide using her as a tool for it to finally snap her out of it once and for all.

            THAT is the grave mistake Ranka makes in tv series and it’s the one huge mistake she’s lucky enough to not make in filmverse.

            So yeah, how ’bout no for being unable to admit faults?

            >The thing about role reversals is that they are not always the same scene for scene. No a good role reversal reverses the scenarios that two characters face, while making changes where it needs to in order to make them fit. Ditto for what if scenarios, they do not always have to be exact re-tellings as all they do is explore possibilities brought up in the series.

            and I remain unconvinced with the similarities being notable enough to make this anything more than fanwank.

            and I

          • Chan says:

            Your fanboy is showing.
            Yes the movie does outright call Ranka the songstress of hope, several times in fact.

            Ranka’s problems in the tv series stemmed from the fact that she didn’t tell a living soul the information that she knew, instead the she kept it to herself, even though she had people who would help her. Movie Ranka was given the same information except she told Alto, and when Alto didn’t listen she told Ozma, and had them analyze her to see that she was in fact right, then got Luca to vouch for her. Her telling them showed that she had a sense of responsibility and it allowed for SMS to find out what exactly what Leon was planning, and call in the other SMS fleets and the NUNS. (By the way I find it ironic that a Ranka fanboy like you isn’t giving her credit for this). Had they not known the truth they wouldn’t be able to figure out how to handle the situation so that they wouldn’t be considered traitors for going against Frontier.

            Ranka made far more mistakes than the ones that you admit to, but again it seems that you’re fishing for excuses on why you should like her, and if you have to ignore the events of the series then so be it.

          • Xard says:

            >Yes the movie does outright call Ranka the songstress of hope, several times in fact.

            The context is entirely different from the government machination of tv series. I think it’s very clear in film itself but if you had the official guidebook you could just read it up for yourself. We’re talking about different things with same concept, it seems.

            >Ranka’s problems in the tv series stemmed from the fact that she didn’t tell a living soul the information that she knew, instead the she kept it to herself, even though she had people who would help her. Movie Ranka was given the same information except she told Alto, and when Alto didn’t listen she told Ozma, and had them analyze her to see that she was in fact right, then got Luca to vouch for her.

            when I say film Ranka is lucky it is precisely because she gets information she never got in series before it was too late and in way higher volumes. It also helps that she’s way less a fuckup in the head and more confident so she can recall some things better than she ever could in tv series. But this is really OT

            >(By the way I find it ironic that a Ranka fanboy like you isn’t giving her credit for this)

            I’m not doing something completely superfluous. Her actions being very praiseworthy in the film with for example this matter is obvious and no one is denying that. But as seemingly always with our debates we end up going in circles about what she did and did not do in tv series properly. Because I think you’re still as unfair as ever on her series behaviour we end up in these OT matches again and again.

            >Ranka made far more mistakes than the ones that you admit to

            Certainly. But I needed to only present one to prove what you claimed wrong and I picked up what I consider her worst fuck up ever to boot.

          • Chan says:

            That was her public nickname, so she is still in the same position as songstress of hope, except this Ranka was too smart to end up in the position of being a tool.

            She told them everything she knew at the time, and that was enough, because SMS had the intruments they needed to find out more, and once she told them what to look for they pieced everything together themselves. Movie Ranka only has about as much information as Ranka after episode 15 did, and yet with her limited amount of information they were still able to get farther than they ever did in the tv series. Why because Ranka telling them, gave them the heads up on what to look for.

            The reason why it seems as though people aren’t giving tv series Ranka any credit, is because she really doesn’t deserve any in this department.

          • Xard says:

            >That was her public nickname

            In series it’s clearly shown to be something Leon et al planned. “Make her the songstress of hope” and such speech in ep 16. Of course public had to take such nickname their own.

            >Movie Ranka only has about as much information as Ranka after episode 15 did

            What? So wait…*what* information exactly did she have? Because it took Brera spilling out the entire plan and its details before she had enough info to go for SMS and make a convincing case.

            Ranka in ep 15 didn’t know any of that. All she knew was that her song had effect on them and some vague mixes of intangible emotions and memories which she couldn’t quite understand, stimulized by her contact with the Vajra queen in ep 14. But those too were more vague feelings and impressions ( she remarks she doesn’t quite understand why she’s crying in end of ep 14) than any workable knowledge.

          • Chan says:

            This Ranka has a public nickname, because she earned the right to be called that, without a military ploy. the public knows her as their songtress of hope, the government didn’t tell them that she was, they decided on it themselves due to her actions. That has more to do with the difference made with the switch so I don’t see your point. However this movie Ranka does not have any responsibility to Frontier the way tv series Ranka had, and yet she still behaves as though it were her responsibility. Tv series Ranka was offered the title of Songtress of Hope by the government and she accepted that title and all it entailed, however when push came to shove she floundered those responsibilities and left it up to others to pick up the pieces, however Movie Ranka earned that title from the people, she did not have any way of accepting or denying it, and yet she showed a sense of responsibility to the people around her. This is because with Sheryl now in the hot seat with the title of betrayer and Ranka taking Sheryl’s place, but tv series can never be Sheryl’s spot, she would never make Sheryl’s decisions, she’s too immature to be that way. Which is why her character being different works for the what if scenario played up by this movie.

            This movie is playing up a bunch of what ifs, not just in the love triangle or with Ranka and Sheryl’s role reversal (let’s face its easier to love a person under perfect circumstances but its much harder to fall in love with someone with so much extra baggage–especially if you’re not attracted to that), but also things like what if Leon was smarter and more conniving? What if he was smart enough to betray Grace? What if Sheryl wasn’t deemed a failure due to being unable to communicate with the Vajra, would Grace still abandon Sheryl? What if Sheryl knew (somewhat) what Grace was planning and things such as that.

            Ranka realized that the Vajra were sentient beings and told Alto her thoughts he brushed her off, but she still told him. Ranka also told her brother about her ability to communicate with the Vajra and that she could feel their emotions, which was all she knew about them. Tv series didn’t tell anybody what she knew even more people that she could trust with such information she never thought to tell anyone, and that resulted in her emotional fit which ended up in the deaths of hundreds or maybe even thousands of people. It probably helps that the Vajra weren’t mindless drones in this movie, and were capable of individual thought.

          • Xard says:

            >This movie is playing up a bunch of what ifs

            Certainly and among ones I really liked was turning Leon from small boy with goofy haircut out of water next to real threats (Vajra and Grace) into a villain with genuine presence and sense of danger to him. It was terrific to see.

            As for the rest I’m happy we have finally reached the root for why we don’t see eye to eye on tv series. It’s also issue on such scale there’s no way I can cover that here in combox because I’ve been thinking of writing 2-3 long posts about these things. To properly counter all of this I’d need to go indepth through Vajra in a way I’ve not seen any western discussion go (good thing Kawamori finally started to spill beans in more detail after final film came out so I could see a lot of my understanding of them was on mark), the narrative form Kawamori employed on second cour (straight out from the style of clever writing he dabbled in to smaller degree in Escaflowne and Arjuna at times) and reasons for that, the symbolic roles Alto and Ranka play in the main themes of the story (as I’ve said before I think both Alto and Ranka were sacrificed to extent in tv series for sake of roles they’d play in thematic subtext) etc. but that all is way beyond what I can achieve here in this combox.

            (I also think you’re overestimating the degree of Ranka’s introspection and comprehension of what she feels in tv series which is something that was upped in films (partly out of storytelling reasons too, you can’t have her be trauma ball on the scale she was in series due to screen time limits. Thus while Ranka still gets freaked out and all by Vajra she’s not in the passes-out-from-seeing-Ozma-hurt degree of fucked up, her memories aren’t quite as deep buried etc.) – just like what was done for Alto in even bigger scale. The keywords for Alto in Sayonara pretty much were that” he has finally moved to stage where he thinks of his own feelings” (Newtype article from Jan or Feb IIRC) and is more introspective in general. This is why Alto/Ozma match in film required nothing more than some punching from Ozma to set the guy straight while in tv series they had to engage in mortal dogfight with Ozma throwing killer, way too perceptive comments and insults at Alto. But this too is not something that can be settled here in the combox.)

            Which is to say: no hard feelings, too bad we can’t see eye to eye about this for now but perhaps things may change later. That okay with you? 🙂

            Sorry for irateness too.

          • GREAT, NO MORE OF THIS NONSENSE.

            NOW BOTH OF YOU SING TOGETHER. XARD TAKE IT LIKE A RANKA AND ACCEPT THE WAY THINGS ARE BY SINGING ALONG WHILE CHAN SHAKES THE GALAXY WITH HER SINGING.

            I’M GONNA CHILL OUT WITH THE VAJRA QUEEN FOR A WHILE.

            VALKYRIAAAAAA

        • Oh lord, since you did not address this adequately:

          Ranka v1:

          “Oh things have gone really bad, Ok onii-chan let’s go talk to the Vajra and tell them the humans are out to invade them. The Vajra will think of something to fix everything. Oh my friends will understand that they can’t help matters right now. Let’s trust in the aliens, I know their feelings. Humans are too hard.”

          Ranka v2:

          “Oh my things have gone really bad, Ok onii-chan I know you’re kind of like the enemy now and no one would believe me if I named you as my source. But I think I’ll tell my friends anyway and they’ll help me figure something out.”

          You addressed this by nitpicking betrayal, betrayal has to have a malicious intent? If I share your posts on twitter and people laugh at you for it, would you not feel betrayed? Hey, I mean you no harm! I just want to entertain people! (No I haven’t shared links to your comments on twitter). I don’t even have a responsibility towards you the same way Ranka has with the citizens of the Frontier colony.

          Betrayal of trust requires no malice.

          Ranka went to the Vajra instead of her people. As the film resolved, it works better when she went with her people. Sure, the film is still xenophobic in its treatment of the Vajra, but hey, Ranka is clearly on our side, and this matters. Between humans and alien space bugs, I know where my loyalties are.

          Hard evidence? Really? Plain logic in the simplest of terms are unacceptable? What is then? Word of Kawamori? Please.

          And LOL you trying to knock interpretations. That’s all we do as readers and viewers. The works are not meant to be viewed with author commentary — that I’m most certain of LOL.

          Basically, how you’ve been arguing so far is how Kawamori’s intention is something you can be certain of, because he says so explicitly. This is the one true interpretation of the work, to do otherwise is to be wrong unilaterally.

          My stand is that his interpretation of his own work is ALWAYS going to be interesting. But in terms of value, it is as valuable as much as I or anyone gives it. It’s no more valuable than yours, Chan’s, anyone’s — by default. This is what I mean by the author is dead. He doesn’t own my experience of the work, he cannot control it. He can only offer and present his work.

          If you seriously want your interpretations to prevail, and I am serious here. It’s not going to happen in a comments section. In the past 3 years I’ve been doing this, it almost never happens. The best way — and this is what I do, is write my own blog post. Present my case in a non-reactionary way, and let the readers decide. Otherwise you risk degenerating into forum behavior which is really, not all that exemplary and upstanding.

          • Xard says:

            >I don’t even have a responsibility towards you the same way Ranka has with the citizens of the Frontier colony.

            Only moral responsibility Ranka or anyone had was towards love and saving lives, human or Vajra. Only way to win the game was to refuse to play it. In service of either Frontier fleet or Vajra end result would’ve been moral atrocity and a genocide one way or another.

            >Hard evidence? Really? Plain logic in the simplest of terms are unacceptable?

            I can’t help but feel like word betrayal carries very negative moral implications and would be equivalent of selling out humans for Vajra. “Betraying the trust” of citizens is of little matter in the end. They were turning into bloodthirsty jingoist fuckers towards the end of series anyway. Betraying expectations of such people is not a bad thing.

            >This is what I mean by the author is dead. He doesn’t own my experience of the work, he cannot control it. He can only offer and present his work.

            and in case you can’t tell I’m no friend of DoA

            >If you seriously want your interpretations to prevail, and I am serious here. It’s not going to happen in a comments section. In the past 3 years I’ve been doing this, it almost never happens. The best way — and this is what I do, is write my own blog post. Present my case in a non-reactionary way, and let the readers decide. Otherwise you risk degenerating into forum behavior which is really, not all that exemplary and upstanding.

            I know and this is why I hate it when we end up going in circles with Chan always about the same damn things. I’m sorry for all the OT here but since his style seems to be to bring up in every discussion, even in those of new films, the supposed moral failures of Ranka in tv series I always walk in the same trap of getting defensive and then lacking the space and time for proper debate.

            *sigh*

            Might as well quit this all. All this OT is my fault.

          • I appreciate that you do like Ranka so damn much. I do. I like her too, but don’t get hung up on shit. It’s a Sherylfag’s time to gloat. I like Movie Ranka, but I don’t love her. I love trainwreck Ranka. That’s my girl. I wouldn’t ship her with Alto, nor choose her if I had to pick a wife LOL, but she’s my girl, like Minmay is my girl.

            I am friends with the worst Minmay haters you can find. It’s not that hard. Be cool.

        • Xard says:

          Well the obvious problem is that Sheryl is just on her heels in terms of my fondness anyway (both are among my all time favourite characters) so the impression I end up giving in these matches gives way too onesided impression of my views and opinions. I love Sheryl too and I’m Macross fan in general and usually I discuss other elements much more. It’s only in these combox skirmishes with Chan I really end up writing like I write here.

          Also: liking series Ranka more than film Ranka… man you’re weird. Why would you like a character you consider a failure and target of 4th wall moe more? Huh.

          • Chan says:

            Sweetie you were yelling at people from holding opposing views in the other post long before I even posted.

          • Xard says:

            What exactly you’re referring to?

            I’m argumentative and all but I don’t remember aggresively “yelling” at people holding opposing views here. I know language I use can be thorny and feel harsher than I actually mean to other people so if I’ve for a change given such “yelling impression” (to me nothing I’ve written here has been “yelling”, just slightly tense and irate at best but I’m aware chance of miscommunication and misinterpretation is rather high) all I can say is sorry and no harm ment.

          • Xard says:

            oh, and as new example of you misinterprepting my words when I said “it’s only in these combox skirmishes with Chan I really end up writing like I write here” I was not referring to perceived level of aggression. What I ment is that I get stuck in this apologist role for series Ranka. There are thousand and other things I’d rather discuss about title but when you waltz in with

            “This movie was basically answered for us, what if the roles were reversed, what if it was Sheryl who was the traitor, and Ranka was responsible, independent, more mature, more considerate, didn’t make her life revolve around a person she just met and barely knew, knew Alto longer, and spent more time with him; would Alto love Ranka then, would Sheryl make the same mistakes that Ranka did? This movie answered those questions with a resounding no.”

            implicitly suggesting tv Ranka was pretty much devoid of positive values and was “traitor” to boot (oh, and even as a spy-traitor Sheryl doesn’t suck as much) the side of me that is bugged by perceived unfairness wakes up. This is not something limited to Ranka’s character or even anime and I’d react in similarly “defensive” fashion in many other contexts too. Not making claims who is factually correct here – just saying that I do have this habit for white knighting or whatever if I’m not in my typically cynical, not really giving a damn mode.

          • Chan says:

            Again it isn’t just with that you’re like this, you’re like this with ghostlightning as well as everyone else in the previous post, really take a chill pill. You’re taking things too personally.

            It means what it means Ranka in the tv series meant well, but she was too immature, and very inconsiderate. Also unlike tv series Ranka, movie Sheryl isn’t from Frontier so she doesn’t have any responsibility to the place like Ranka did, so she cannot be called a traitor simply because she never had a responsibility to them, like she did to Galaxy. If you could say that movie Sheryl betrayed anyone it would be Alto and Ranka’s trust, but they forgave her for it, and again she didn’t make the same mistakes as tv series Ranka did and she told them all she knew, once she had the chance. Like I said before Sheryl and Rana are different characters so even if Sheryl was in Ranka’s position she wouldn’t make the same mistakes that Ranka did. I’m sooo sorry I didn’t sing tv series Ranka any praises, and seems like what has got your panty in a bunch, and you took it for a personal attack, but seriously dude, get over yourself. My post was about how Ranka’s character had changed in the movie and where she improved, It wasn’t an essay on Ranka, where I’m obligated to sing her praises while pointing out her failures.

          • Xard says:

            oh, I’m not looking for praises and whatnot. My favourite characters include likes of Shinji Ikari and Asuka Soryu Langley and, well, they have their unlikeable sides to say the least and they get (I also have my share of “problems” with Shinji, hah) more hate and all than can be counted. So I don’t really care in general much. It’s just that since our first exchanges in here you’ve given impression to me of one of the extreme haters (though unusually polite) from, say, AS who can find no redeeming qualities in her. It’s entirely one thing to point out the obvious superiority of her film incarnation but I didn’t like the caveat of bashing the tv Ranka that seemed to come with it. Which wasn’t the case, apparently, so in turn this time I misinterpreted you because essentially “It means what it means Ranka in the tv series meant well, but she was too immature, and very inconsiderate” is something I agree on.

            As for the rest like having some sort of “duty” towards Frontier I still disagree on. But that’s not for now and is also OT, like most of this tangent.

    • Excellent. Full marks. This is a great take on things. This will have to be archived, shared, and quoted in future posts (will edit my triangle resolution post to reference this). Good job.

    • plasticzaku says:

      I thought the role reversal was really cool and done well. Everything was more dramatic, but that would make sense for an in-universe movie (a la Do You Remember Love.)

      I agree with most of what you said, but what were you referring to with, “Sheryl didn’t make the same choices as Ranka, she didn’t keep vital information to herself?” I thought it was the other way around.

      TV Ranka had tried to tell Alto what she knew about the space bugs, but he was too blinded by anger to listen to her and wanted to kill Ai-kun. She then left with Brera because she didn’t have any better options than a semi suicidal attempt to make contact with the Vajra.

      Movie Sheryl didn’t tell anyone that Grace was up to something and she was part of the plan prior to the attempted takeover that Leon intercepted and her arrest. I suspect that Sheryl was kept ignorant of the full scope of their plans and that little taking over the galaxy bit, though.

      In either case, everyone’s reaction is ZOMG TRAITOR (drama and plot advancement ensues) but I felt about as bad for both girls.

      • Xard says:

        >Do You Remember Love

        There’s no good reason to think DYRL we got is the same in-universe DYRL film they have (actually they seem to have many versions of it, including one made in M7) though. In fact Frontier tv series at latest should’ve buried the notion that all in DYRL is “fictional” in comparison to tv series.

        Incidentally in-universe “triangler” is OP song for SDF Macross tv drama. So I guess if one goes and replaces MAH-KU-ROSS with KIIIMIIIIII and then leaves SDFM as it is we get to see the show people in Macrossverse were watching 😆

        • plasticzaku says:

          With the universe’s love of movie dramatizations, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were a bunch based on the events in SDFM. It wasn’t an important time period or anything…

          Speaking of in-universe movies, dat Legend of Zero episode. Aww yeah.

  5. Pingback: Chan on Sayonara no Tsubasa Answering a Great “What if” | The Ghosts of Discussions

  6. For me, the TTGL movies did plenty, but probably because I didn’t like the series as much as you or my brother did. When he watched the movies, he said that while they were good, there’s no way they could be better than the TV series because there was simply less content. As for myself, sitting through the entire series again had become rather difficult, as for me the show is more about the spectacle than anything else. So as far as I’m concerned, a pair of movies that “trim the fat” and up the spectacle was all I needed.

    Maybe this says that the movie, instead of adding something for fans who thought the series was fine already, adds something for would-be fans who had a problem with the series. But then where would this leave people who were happier with Macross Frontier when the love triangle wasn’t resolved? Probably liking the movies a lot less than the show. Or something—I haven’t seen the movies nor read the ridiculous amount of reaction here to tell ya.

    • And there you have it. You didn’t like the source material as much that you’d find this more valuable.

      The spectacle, is also the content. TTGL isn’t an empty spectacle, the over-the-top awesomeness speaks volumes of the love and guts, and power, and friendship and all these wonderful things this work presents. There would be a tiny subsection of the fandom who prefers the harem ending, as much as there is a tiny subsection of the TTGL fandom who thinks the show is so fat it’s gotta go on a diet.

  7. I still haven’t seen all of TTGL, but a movie adaptation is supposed to resolve some loose ends, rectify or rehash the storyline, and correct defects found in the original TV series, even if it’s limited to two hours.

  8. Reid says:

    As I’ll never likely be as well-versed as you gents in the ways of Macross, I won’t even attempt to dig deeply into the significance of the Sheryl/Ranka comparrison as presented by “Wings of Goodbye”, but there are some things I liked very much about this movie and these are things I feel any fan of this kind of anime would appreciate.
    That said – the triangle got resolved. But did it REALLY? This is a whole ‘nother deal, and one that bothered me greatly back when I first began my journey into Macross-viewing. It’s one that I’ll never be content with – we really have not a clue about what really happened in any of these stories except what we’re presented with on an individual story by story basis. And that is ok, so long as I don’t try to think too hard about it. I’m glad Alto picked Sheryl (even though I like Cathy the best of all) this time. So that’s that.

    The main thing I came away with after watching the movie was, well, how little I cared about the amazing mecha stuff that was going on. The YF-29 is a really cool plane, sure, but I had no connection to it – nothing like the way that, say, a Geara Zulu speaks to my love of Zeon’s mass produced cannon-fodder mobile suits. I expected to love the YF-29 because it’s pretty similar to the YF-19, which I do love (and by the way, the Isamu cameo made me smile a genuine smile), but I just didn’t care much about the “mecha action” aspect of the movie. Is that bad? I like most everything else about the presentation though.

    Ultimately, I’m glad I saw this movie, but I’m afraid I’ll have to spend more time with the Macross franchise as a whole before I’ll love it. I’m hoping that future posts and further discussion by you all, my esteemed WRLers, will make me come around to a better way of thinking about what I honestly do feel OUGHT to be one of my favorite anime movies.

    • Well, Macross IS a love story set against a backdrop of great battles. The love story IS the content, and the great battles are the fanservice. I share your feelings, and so it’s not really bad. There are so many other things to like. It’s not like the TV series that you get to develop a relationship with the VF-25 Messiah over 25 episodes, much like the Geara Zulu feels like a reward for countless episodes of Zeon vs. Federation conflict. Also, CCA was resolved in a straightforward mecha battle, not an idol concert.

      DYRL? is the same… as gorgeous the animation was, there wasn’t really a whole lot of mecha pr0n there, and so the tradition continues. Don’t force yourself re Macross. First girl wins most of the time (and in my case it’s true), and you met Gundam first LOL, just like Sheryl x Alto.

      • Reid says:

        Oh I don’t have to be forced on Macross. Far from it. I just need to warm up to our relationship. Macross and me are friends now but the romance will come later, hopefully. But the first girl usually does win…though when I consider that I loved planes before I even thought about robots it makes me all confused. So maybe Macross IS my Cheryl (even though, by following this logic, I guess that wold make me the biggest Ranka fanboy ever)!

        Another thing I just happened to think of: did you notice how, in the final action, when Cheryl and Ranka undergo one of their many wardrobe changes that Cheryl dons the military (fanservice) uniform while Ranka gets the more fanservice-y “idol-wear”? It kind of foreshadows Alto’s ultimate choice to go with Cheryl, sort of as a call back to Hikaru picking Misa instead of ol’ what’s-her-name.

        • Xard says:

          The build-up to the romantic resolution is really, really good in my eyes with plenty of – in retrospect – decisive moments pretty much telling the viewer how it’s going to be before Alto says a word but I have to admit I didn’t consider the uniform from this angle. After all, it’s not like Alto is making a choice between giving up his aspirations, dreams and personality and choosing a life in military and woman in support of that. But I don’t think it’s complete stretch.

          Speaking of said buildup, Kawamori’s craft is superb throughout the film but one of my absolute favourite moment occurs just at the end of Ranka’s confession scene as Houkago Overflow rolls in while Alto gives that desolate hug of sympathy for Ranka. It’s incredibly beautiful scene visually but best of all you can “read” the resolution to triangle and Alto/Ranka side of things from how it’s staged. I probably say more in GL’s next post on film and point out the brilliant pieces in detail there but for now I just say the windows shutting and screen going black also pretty literally marks and symbolizes the fall of curtains on that part of the love triangle. While Alto’s love for Sheryl would remain unknown to Fairy untill the moment of confession throughout the film Ranka really isn’t surprised to hear his rejection – I think (given the plenty of hints and this impression coming up so frequently in japanese discussion of the film I’m very sure about it) in films she knew from the start her love was unrequited one and the way this moment is handled shows such understanding too. Houkago Overflow, a song with really painful and bittersweet lyrics yet performed smilingly, coming in right afterwards just seals the deal with this being the end for her just as clearly as Minmay singing about remembering love in past sense was end for her.

          As for the other lineage of buildup anyone who could not see Sheryl end as inevitable *at latest* in moment when Alto remembers loli-Sheryl (and they shift May’n to sing the “otome kokoro yuuki dashite” of kuma kuma perfectly on time as particularly sweet touch) wasn’t paying attention at all.

  9. JoeQ says:

    Thought I’d mention a couple of other bad compilation movies (can’t think of any good ones):

    RahXephon: Pluralitas Concentio: Made of at least 90% completely recycled content, so the only reason to watch this is to see Ayato get in on with Haruka.

    Escaflowne: A Girl in Gaea: Now in this films defense, at least it has new animation and does things differently from the TV version. The problem is that it does pretty much all of them worse.

    There’s also the Eureka 7 movie, which I’ve heard is pretty shitty too.

    • Thanks!

      I read that about Pluritas Concentio and stayed away from it, same with A Girl in Gaea. It would seem that my instincts served me then.

      Eureka SeveN: A Pocketful of Rainbows is a different beast. It’s NOT a compilation movie. It radically changed things far beyond what Macross Frontier did, with distressing results. I cannot forgive what it did to two of the lovable Gekkostate guys. That was just wrong. I cannot recommend this at all.

      I suppose sometimes the risk of changing things doesn’t always pay off.

      • Shinmarizu says:

        In agreement with regards to Pluritas Concerto and Pocketful of Rainbows. Though I do acknowledge the aim of those 2 films, I was not satisfied with their execution.
        As for A Girl in Gaea, I embraced that as a different take; a “what if” scenario, and left it at that. No challenge at the disjointment, just as an experiment which would remain dissociate from the Escaflowne canon. This was also the first of these three films I had watched, and at an early time in my anime-viewing career, also with Yoko Kanno musical awesomeness, so I took it all with a grain of salt.

    • Matt Wells says:

      BONES studio really has a shitty track record with movie adaptations.

    • plasticzaku says:

      The Escaflowne movie was a faptastic level of beautiful. I really wish the plot/writing had been decent. I could have lived with changes to the characters or story that I didn’t like since that’s a matter of personal taste, but it was just terribad. I only finished watching it for the visuals.

  10. megaroad1 says:

    I agree with what your take on the Gurren Lagann movies vis a vis the Frontier movies. For the most part I tend not to like films that are basically compilations of series. They tend to just cover the same ground and just doing it much quicker. The resulting pacing is often awkward to the say the least and one misses out on the fleshing out of the characters that occurse in longer series or OVA. And if on top of that the only new thing they have to offer is new animation here and there, well, you’re really not getting that much out of it. One really has to offer new content and new scenes to keep the viewer at the edge of his seat and add value so to speak. I think Sayonara no Tsubasa has done it beautifully. I think Kawamori’s views on canon really have helped him in this case. He’s just free to take things wherever he wants.

  11. Matt Wells says:

    The Gurren Lagann movies were an exercise in redundancy. If you can’t top the overall experience of the TV original, then why even bother? The first took Simon’s hearfelt decleration of who he was and added a few more levels of epic. This was not worth the loss of the Battle of Teppelin. The second film’s climax was akin to stuffing yourself sick on cake; what was initially tasty just got saccharine and made you feel sick. Everyone getting a Tengen Toppa ganmen? Cool. No one getting the screen time necessary to show of these new mechs? Not cool. Extended nine minute final fight capped off with Simon and the Anti-Spiral King going at it with fisticuffs? Overblown to the point of self parody.

    Stuff like the older members of the Dai-Gurren army surviving wasn’t minor enough to be neglible, but enough of a change to be irritating. And little odds and ends like Nia planting flowers and people recognising Simon was just thrown in to shut up the more vocal members of the fanbase. By the far the best thing to come out of those movies were the new Parallel Works videos, and the awesome artwork Gainax put up on their blog to publicise the movie. Young Lordgenome looking just like Nia with Boota-esque Guame asdfghkl!

    Compilation movies are definitely something that should break past the constraints of their TV originators. So sad that so few of them end up being more than inferior rehashes. Other compilations I know of unmentioned thus far:

    Xabungle Grafitti: Untranslated and unsubbed, high energy condensed recap of the TV series. Frequently prone to the series’ excessive humour, with Chiru re-enacting key scenes with sock puppets. Pointless except for the farcial happy ending, with a few major characters surviving unharmed.

    Fang of the Sun Dougram Document: I THINK this one’s a compilation. Next to no information about it on the internet. If so, its an 80 minute version of a 75 episode TV series: odds against it being of any high discernible quality.

    Armored Trooper VOTOMS: Pailsen Files movie: Adds on new animation for the opening and ending credits. Otherwise an acceptable 2 hour version of the original TV series. It gets it right in that it manages to preserve the majority of the main plot, at the expense of a lot of character beats and plot threads that made the series enjoyable. Also kept a majority of the action sequences too.

    Space Warrior Baldios movie: Sort of a cross between the two Ideon movies: a condensed retelling of the cancelled TV series, but with a lot of new and altered animation for the never aired final episodes. Gives a proper conclusion to the Lol-sudden apocalypse ending of the show. Long story short: global warming kills everything, not even giant robots can stop it. Give a hoot, don’t pollute mothafucka.

    Gunbuster VS Diebuster Aim for the Top! The Gattai movie: Back to back theatrical release of complied versions of the two TV series. Similar problems to the Gurren Lagann movies, just minus a bit or narrative fat and some small new footage for Diebuster. Gunbuster gets a new dub by the original cast, but that’s it. DVDs for this one are rare as hell, and the Blu-Ray release expensive as hell. Best viewed one after the other as intended.

    Mobile Suit Gundam 0083: The Last Blitz of Zeon AKA The Afterglow of Zeon: One of the three Universal Century Gundam’s commercially available in the UK. I HATE this fucking waste of space with a passion, mainly because of all the Gundam movies, this one is still out there when the original trilogy and Char’s Counterattack are long out of print. The review on MAHQ says it all, but this movie is quite frankly the laziest compilation I’ve ever seen. Inferior to the TV series in every way. They even took out MIO’s songs in favour of two bland ballads by a singer who’s name escapes me ‘casue I don’t give a shit because True Shining is no MEN OF DESTINY.

    Mobile Suit Gundam SEED compilation trilogy: I’ll… just leave these to you shall I? No sense in trying to polish a turd after all.

    And there’s the movie cut of the sequel to Gundam Wing, but I don’t have a clue about that one.

    • schneider says:

      I watched Endless Waltz in movie form. Verdict? It’s not bad, but then again anything looks good after Gundam Wing TV.

    • Turambar says:

      “If you can’t top the overall experience of the TV original, then why even bother?”

      I’ll give you a hand with that. It’s far easier to watch a 2 hour movie than a full length series for any new viewer. I have far more luck luring someone into the Zeta Gundam movies than the Zeta Gundam anime as the latter is time investment (and money investment) on a vastly different scale. It takes the condensed version to wet their appetite, inferior version or not, that makes them take interest in the far lengthier original series.

      Bottom line, its marketing material that can turn a profit all on their own.

      • Matt Wells says:

        Fair enough, but it works both ways. A terrible Movie experience like some of the clunkers I mentioned can be enough to forever turn off potential new audiences from a franchise. And bear in mind that Compilations are already inherent rehashes: their main audience is hardcore fans of the original series who show up in the hope of something new, be it footage or an alternate ending.

        • plasticzaku says:

          Agreed. Luring in new viewers with a condensed version isn’t a bad idea in theory, but so many compilation movies are abysmal in practice.

          If I want to convince a friend to watch something, I tell them about how awesome it is while focusing on details that are relevant to their interests. Send the mechaphile some sexy mecha action shots, send some pics of guys/girls in tight pilot suits depending on preference, tell the current events junkie about politics in the story, etc.

    • Thanks for the extensive list, I won’t bother with the SEED compilation trilogy, but I heard how it’s a preferable way to consume the show because it’s basically the same thing minus all the flashbacks, reused animation, and recap eps… less than 6 hours of footage sounds just about right.

      Oh god Gunbuster vs. Diebuster was terrible. Raeg.

      On the other hand, the Macross Plus movie edition is not bad at all! The Guld final attack makes it all worth it too.

  12. schneider says:

    My biggest gripe with the TTGL movies was that my favorite fight in the TV series, the Gurren Lagann vs Lazengann fight, was just glossed over.

    I was genuinely enjoying the revised final battle, until it dawned on me on how long it was dragging and then my enjoyment plummeted from the sky. No use trying to prolong an orgasm.

    (I’d own a figure of Nia’s mech if I could, though)

    • The final battle really pissed me off, the more I think about it. And yes, the Gurren Lagann vs. Lazengann fight was really good, and to edit that out in exchange for… what was it? I don’t remember either. Ugh.

  13. kadian1364 says:

    The only value I found in the TTGL movies was while the TV series left a crack in the door for others to lay claim to the biggest super mecha battle ever, the climax of the 2nd movie firmly slammed that door shut. A universe-consuming spiral energy battle is how I prefer to believe Gurren Lagann ended.

  14. Pingback: The Resolution of the Triangle—The Third of Six Posts on Macross Frontier The Wings of Goodbye | We Remember Love

  15. Nishimura says:

    I haven’t seen the TTGL movies but from the looks of it, I don’t really need to. I’ve always had a bad feeling for movies that basically just rehash the plot of their respective television series, which is probably why I enjoyed The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya and Ah! My Goddess movie so much (The latter of which I feel is actually better than the tv series it’s based on, simply because it knew what to focus its time on). I also agree that the Rebuild movies of Evangelion are so entertaining to watch because there not just replaying old scenes but building off old matieral to create a new and entertaining movie. Hopefully they’ll turn out just as good as Macross Frontier.

    • I have bigger expectations from Rebuild than I did for Macross Frontier, which only really had to resolve the triangle (more in the third post). I too enjoyed Disappearance, and another example that covers the same ground of the TV series but turns it on its head: The Adolescence of Utena.

      • Xard says:

        I think Macross Frontier: Film Version is a lot better than Rebuild has been so far. I mean, I do think Rebuild is pretty great and I’m Eva fan and all but Kawamori really owned Anno’s ass this time. Sayonara no Tsubasa was hundred times better paced and written than Rebuild 2.22 was and Utahime did much better job at establishing the characters and the drama than 1.11 did.

        Adolescence of Utena is one of the few reinterpretations on DYRL/Plus/MF films tier but apart from aesthetics I don’t think it stands up to them either. Still, one of the better reinterpretations

        • Well, Rebuild is made up of more movies so I think it does have the advantage, so it has everything to lose at this point.

          You’re wrong about Adolescence of Utena. That thing is wild.

          • Xard says:

            I do like AoU and I’ve given it perfect score on MAL even but it fails to engage me emotionally like the series and I’m not happy with all choices that were made in terms of narrative structure (Nanami cow episodes were lovely but it was meaningless interlude in the film format). The whole thing is rushed in some respects a lot. I mean, it’s great stuff but far more flawed than the other titles I mentioned and doesn’t stand up to series as well as those titles do.

            Utena with Adolescence’s animation quality and art would’ve been the perfect anime though.

            There’ll be one or two Rebuild films left so yeah, there’s that advantage but both Rebuild films have been far more flawed than MF flicks, have done poorer job with characters etc. so they really need to pull something on nigh-EoE scale in the end if they wish to surpass the Macross retellings IMO

            Especially since DYRL and Frontier films improved on some aspects of the originals while Rebuilds have only done better job with technical values so far… and even then neither compares to EoE with its Asuka vs MPE fight, crazy metafiction and all

          • while Rebuilds have only done better job with technical values so far

            No, but I’m not going to discuss this here. Just for the record, the Rebuilds (2 of them) so far, have not threatened to make me prefer them over the TV series the way the Frontier films have, but I disagree with your dismissal and I find value in them beyond the technical.

            sds

    • Shinmarizu says:

      I think it goes without saying that we all hope the Rebuild continues to do so well.

  16. Pingback: The Fourth of 6 Posts on Macross Frontier The Wings of Goodbye–Photoshop Frontier & The Rehabilitation of Grace, Alto & Ranka | We Remember Love

  17. Pingback: Going Beyond The Impossible: The Reconstruction of the Macross Frontier Canon—The 5th of 6 Posts on The Wings of Goodbye | We Remember Love

  18. Pingback: Sheryl Nome is The Most Awesome Woman in Anime—The Sixth of Six Posts on Macross Frontier The Wings of Goodbye | We Remember Love

  19. Sugel says:

    That’s the basics, and quite honestly it’s kind of boring for the first 8 or so episodes. Well, not boring as in “ho-hum, that’s putting me to sleep,” but boring as in “oh my god…. I’ve seen this 50-thousand times already what with FLCL , Gunbuster 2, and every other Gainax (and Gainax inspired rip-off) show since 2000.” I mean it looks JUST LIKE Gunbuster 2 (in both style and substance), and that’s NEVER a good thing. Gainax, please, give the FLCL-vibe a rest! It worked fantastic in that short OVA series, but in a 27 episode, drawn-out series it just becomes grating!! Well, it did up until episode 8… And I digress.

  20. Pingback: The Wings of Goodbye – Goodbye to What Macross Stands For « Ideas Without End

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